Modern Judaism

[Guest shiloh357]

Well many reform Jews in the US don't even acknowledge God, let alone sin. Many Jews today are sadly athiest or agnostic.

Still of course they are Jewish and part of God's plan. I do find it odd that you can be an athiest and still be considered Jewish, but if you convert to Christianity you are not considered a Jew, I find that bizare.

It's not really all that bizarre when you consider that the church has historically been the source of so much pain in the way it has brutally persecuted, vilified and demonized the Jews. Historically, the Jews were seen as the emblem of God's hatred and contempt, and so persecuting the Jews becam a way of reminding them that God hated them and it was seen as the duty of Christians to hate the Jews. Even during the Holocaust, many nazis were baptized Christians in good standing with the Churches in Germany and felt that they were doing God's work by purifying the world of the Jews.

Even today, the Jews are portrayed in films, literature and art as the villains of the New Testament. In Christians circles, to be labeled a "pharisee" is the one of the most strongest pejoratives you can level at someone. Jesus confrontation with his enemies and his rebuke of them has for centuries been unfairly projected on to the Jewish people as a whole as if the atagonistic enemies of Jesus were characteristic of all Jews.

And we have the nerve to wonder WHY they just cannot see Jesus as the Messiah... Thanks to Christianity down through the ages, many Jews will die without knowing their Messiah. Ironically, the Church has been the biggest obstacle to the Jews finding Christ.

[Lomi]

Well many reform Jews in the US don't even acknowledge God, let alone sin. Many Jews today are sadly athiest or agnostic.

Still of course they are Jewish and part of God's plan. I do find it odd that you can be an athiest and still be considered Jewish, but if you convert to Christianity you are not considered a Jew, I find that bizare.

It's not really all that bizarre when you consider that the church has historically been the source of so much pain in the way it has brutally persecuted, vilified and demonized the Jews. Historically, the Jews were seen as the emblem of God's hatred and contempt, and so persecuting the Jews becam a way of reminding them that God hated them and it was seen as the duty of Christians to hate the Jews. Even during the Holocaust, many nazis were baptized Christians in good standing with the Churches in Germany and felt that they were doing God's work by purifying the world of the Jews.

Even today, the Jews are portrayed in films, literature and art as the villains of the New Testament. In Christians circles, to be labeled a "pharisee" is the one of the most strongest pejoratives you can level at someone. Jesus confrontation with his enemies and his rebuke of them has for centuries been unfairly projected on to the Jewish people as a whole as if the atagonistic enemies of Jesus were characteristic of all Jews.

And we have the nerve to wonder WHY they just cannot see Jesus as the Messiah... Thanks to Christianity down through the ages, many Jews will die without knowing their Messiah. Ironically, the Church has been the biggest obstacle to the Jews finding Christ.

Thanks Shiloh,

Now I have a much better & clearer understanding.

Thanks mummieoscar for putting on this post.

lomi

[BlessedHope]

Judaism as we know it, began in 72 AD. The Biblical relgion of Israel and rabbinic Judaism are not the same thing.

Rabbinic Judaism is an adjustment to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. The only religious sect to survive that event was the Pharisees. Modern Judaism is essentially Pharsaism.

After the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, the question arose as to how "Jewishness" would be defined. Up until that time, their religion centered around the Temple system. It was decided in 72 AD by Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai in the Israelite Rabbinic Academy at Yavneh that the mitzva'ot (commandents/good works) would replace the sacrifices until the Temple was rebuilt.

Unfortunately, Judaism sees itself as going all the way back to Mt. Sinai, but that is just not true.

I agree shiloh!

I was raised in the Jewish faith (Reform Rabbinic Judaism)...I was born again in 1974 and I now am a member of the Body of Christ...I call myself a Christian. Lost Jews are the same as lost Gentiles...all must come through Christ for salvation...there is no difference. The ground is level at the foot of the cross.

Edited April 18, 2009 by BlessedHope

[BlessedHope]

Well many reform Jews in the US don't even acknowledge God, let alone sin. Many Jews today are sadly athiest or agnostic.

Still of course they are Jewish and part of God's plan. I do find it odd that you can be an athiest and still be considered Jewish, but if you convert to Christianity you are not considered a Jew, I find that bizare.

I was raised Reform Jewish (Rabbinical Judaism). And for me personally, I knew there had to be a God somewhere "out there"...I was scared of death....probably because I knew deep down that I would end up in hell because I wasn't "good enough" to make it to heaven. My older brother was definitely an agnostic when we were growing up. Being "Jewish" has nothing to do with the religion of Judaism. I learned that being "Jewish" was being born of a Jewish mother and being a "physical" descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I know Jewish people who proclaim to be Buddhists...some Jews even "convert" to Roman Catholicism, etc. Our family were not practicing Jews (we were "LIBERAL") So one can be an atheist and still be of the Jewish race (physically).

I was born again in 1974...I'm still Jewish ethnically...but my identity now is "in Christ". Therefore, I am a Christian.

[Botz]

I was born again in 1974...I'm still Jewish ethnically...but my identity now is "in Christ". Therefore, I am a Christian.

Hi BlessedHope....I find it interesting that you make the distinction in the way you have described, whereas friends that I know who have been ethnically Jewish, and then been 'born again' have been at pains to retain their Jewish identity and would say that they are now in Messiah, and therefore a Messianic Jew, in other words a Jewish Believer in the Jewish Messiah. I am a Gentile that believes in the Jewish Messiah, I prefer to call myself a Messianic Gentile...more of a way of deliberate departure from some of the associations of gentile Christianity, and to re-emphasize that my faith has it's roots in Jewish history. Friends call me a Christian, and so I am, I have no problem with that, but because of the the gentilisation of the Body of Messiah in such a negative way over the years, I am at pains to remove myself, when possible/expedient, from traditional inconsistancies that continue to replicate age old mistakes and inadvertent prejudices, which ultimately promote the Gentile version of Jesus, to the exclusion of the original.

[BlessedHope]

I was born again in 1974...I'm still Jewish ethnically...but my identity now is "in Christ". Therefore, I am a Christian.

Hi BlessedHope....I find it interesting that you make the distinction in the way you have described, whereas friends that I know who have been ethnically Jewish, and then been 'born again' have been at pains to retain their Jewish identity and would say that they are now in Messiah, and therefore a Messianic Jew, in other words a Jewish Believer in the Jewish Messiah. I am a Gentile that believes in the Jewish Messiah, I prefer to call myself a Messianic Gentile...more of a way of deliberate departure from some of the associations of gentile Christianity, and to re-emphasize that my faith has it's roots in Jewish history. Friends call me a Christian, and so I am, I have no problem with that, but because of the the gentilisation of the Body of Messiah in such a negative way over the years, I am at pains to remove myself, when possible/expedient, from traditional inconsistancies that continue to replicate age old mistakes and inadvertent prejudices, which ultimately promote the Gentile version of Jesus, to the exclusion of the original.

I make the distinction for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I was going to a Messianic Torah Observant congregation for 10 years after I got saved. Most of the congregation was Gentile (85%)...no problem there, however Gentiles should not be put back under the "yoke of the Law" (Acts 15:1-10). It was this error which the apostle Paul addressed in his epistle to the Galatians. Mixing law/works and grace. Secondly, the focus was on "Jewishness" "Torah", etc. not on Jesus Christ. The Gospel of grace was not preached and if I had not been going to (what you call a "gentiliized" Church/Christianity)a church on Sundays, I would have fallen on my face spiritually...and I almost did anyway.

If we are to "get back to our roots"...let's go back all the way to the apostles...not just back to the early church fathers. Our focus must be on Jesus Christ, not on our "roots". Yes, it's good to understand our "roots", but "roots" is not our focus, Jesus Christ is.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2)

That's why I prefer to call myself a Christian. It's not my ethinicity to which I identify...it's Christ, and only Christ.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20)

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (Ephesians 2:15)

[Botz]

I see where you are coming from...I have never entertained the idea of being 'back under the yoke', and I have never seen a need to be 'Torah observant'. We have some flaky Messianic congregations over here (UK), where the Gentiles are in the majority by far, and they practice trying to be Jewish which is all a bit sickly really.

If we are to "get back to our roots"...let's go back all the way to the apostles...not just back to the early church fathers. Our focus must be on Jesus Christ, not on our "roots". Yes, it's good to understand our "roots", but "roots" is not our focus, Jesus Christ is.

Of course our focus must be on the L-rd...I take that as a 'given' amongst Believers...although I would call Him Jesus the Messiah rather than Jesus Christ which makes it sound as if Christ is His surname (some Christians think it is).

I don't quite know why you mention the early Church Father's...I find many of them very flawed, especially when it comes to the Jewish people, and G-ds love for Israel....some were virulently anti-Semitic.

I suspect a paradigm shift in the Church's thinking regarding G-d's purposes for Israel and the Jewish people is too much to hope for just yet, but I think the days are coming when one of the distinguishing marks of the true Body, will be how Israel is viewed, how the Jewish people are viewed, and how our Messianic brethren are supported.

[BlessedHope]

I see where you are coming from...I have never entertained the idea of being 'back under the yoke', and I have never seen a need to be 'Torah observant'. We have some flaky Messianic congregations over here (UK), where the Gentiles are in the majority by far, and they practice trying to be Jewish which is all a bit sickly really.

You may not have entertained the idea of being 'back under the yoke', but it does happen in the majority of Messiainc congregations here in the USA. We also have alot of flaky Messianic congregations here where the Gentiles are in the majority and that majority do practice trying to be Jewish...and I agree with you, it is all a bit sickly. I call thes folks "Jewish wannabes" They "wannabe" Jewish!

If we are to "get back to our roots"...let's go back all the way to the apostles...not just back to the early church fathers. Our focus must be on Jesus Christ, not on our "roots". Yes, it's good to understand our "roots", but "roots" is not our focus, Jesus Christ is.

Of course our focus must be on the L-rd...I take that as a 'given' amongst Believers...although I would call Him Jesus the Messiah rather than Jesus Christ which makes it sound as if Christ is His surname (some Christians think it is).

In the congregation I was in, Jewishness and Torah was the focus. The "Jewishness" of Jesus was more important than Him as Saviour. I have a question for you...why do you leave out the "o" in Lord and God? I can't find anywhere in the Bible where the Israelites did this. I have heard that this "tradition" comes from the Talmud.

Christ is not a surname. This is the Greek word for the Hebrew `Messiah,' meaning `anointed.' This title occurs about 50 times in the gospels as compared to about 300 times in the Epistles. `Christ' is an official designation, or title, and is usually written with the article prefixed as `the Christ.'

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:16)

I don't quite know why you mention the early Church Father's...I find many of them very flawed, especially when it comes to the Jewish people, and G-ds love for Israel....some were virulently anti-Semitic.

When various "groups"/denominations (i.e. Roman Catholicism) want to prove their "roots", they only go back to the early Church fathers...I say we need to go back to the apostles. Many of the early Church fathers were heretics, as well as being anti-semetic.

I suspect a paradigm shift in the Church's thinking regarding G-d's purposes for Israel and the Jewish people is too much to hope for just yet, but I think the days are coming when one of the distinguishing marks of the true Body, will be how Israel is viewed, how the Jewish people are viewed, and how our Messianic brethren are supported.

The Jewish people need salvation...and salvation is only in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross of Calvary. There is no other way. The Church needs to be more involved in Jewish evangelism...I'm a firm believer that the Gospel needs to be preached "to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16).

[Botz]

You may not have entertained the idea of being 'back under the yoke', but it does happen in the majority of Messiainc congregations here in the USA. We also have alot of flaky Messianic congregations here where the Gentiles are in the majority and that majority do practice trying to be Jewish...and I agree with you, it is all a bit sickly. I call thes folks "Jewish wannabes" They "wannabe" Jewish!

Yep! That about sums these dear brethren up...time for them to smell the humus.

In the congregation I was in, Jewishness and Torah was the focus. The "Jewishness" of Jesus was more important than Him as Saviour. I have a question for you...why do you leave out the "o" in Lord and God? I can't find anywhere in the Bible where the Israelites did this. I have heard that this "tradition" comes from the Talmud.

It is simply because in the past I have had Othodox Jewish friends, and using God or Lord causes them problems, so in deference to them I leave the 'o' out...they believe it is getting very near to writing the name of G-d, and treat it as such...for me I have always done it to avoid accidental offence....but I am not bound by it.

Christ is not a surname. This is the Greek word for the Hebrew `Messiah,' meaning `anointed.' This title occurs about 50 times in the gospels as compared to about 300 times in the Epistles. `Christ' is an official designation, or title, and is usually written with the article prefixed as `the Christ.'

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:16)

I do realise this My point is just the way many Christians use Jesus Christ as if it is His full name. To be accurate it would be better to say 'Jesus the Christ', or 'Jesus our Christ'...but personally I do not use the designate Christ because the word really detracts from the Hebrew origin of Messiah, and IMO alienates, sterilises and reduces the Jewish title of our L-rd to a more digestible Gentile format. For some of my Jewish friends the word 'Christ' is repugnant for historical reasons, and causes an unnecessary barrier, and I can see their point...but using 'Messiah' brings everything back into perspective.

The Jewish people need salvation...and salvation is only in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross of Calvary. There is no other way. The Church needs to be more involved in Jewish evangelism...I'm a firm believer that the Gospel needs to be preached "to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16).

Absolutely...but if the Church seriously wants to be involved in reaching out to the Jewish people they need to put themselves in their shoes and have some sensitivity in the way Messiah is presented to them...we need to catch the passion of the Apostle Paul's heart towards his own people.