Are You Lost?

June 22, 2009

That is right. Your kowledge that a hot stove will burn you is based on past experiences, what you have learned about heat, what others have told you about hot stoves, etc.

But not everything can necessarily be learned by "experience" and not all belief is based on experience.

Now imagine I have an incredibly technologically advanced stove that only transmits heat from the element to metal objects. It looks just like a regular stove though and has a pot of water boiling away on it to prove that it is hot. If I told you you could touch the stove and not get burnt you likely wouldn't believe me. What would be required to make you believe that putting your hand on this particular hot stove wouldn't hurt?

I could go through a number of things, I could explain how it works, I could put a piece of steak directly on the element to show it doesn't sizzle, I could touch it myself, there are all sorts of things I could do. At some point it would be likely that this weight of evidence would trigger the belief that putting your hand on this particular stove wouldn't injure you. It may seem that this change of belief is a concious decision but considering that it only happens in direct response to new evidence/information/experience/etc. suggests that belief is formed as a result of these things, not by choice.

That is where your logic breaks down. That is not really an example of an unconsciuous choice to believe or not to believe. You would not presenting evidence for me to believe at all. You would be presenting proof. In other words, you can prove beyond doubt that the stove would be safe to touch. It would not be a case of changing what I know about touching hot stoves. It would only prove to me that YOUR stove was safe to touch. So in essence you have not changed anything about how I think. You would simply demonstrate to me that A stove had been created that is safe for me to touch while it is operating.

Any number of examples have and can be given where belief about a particular issue has nothing to do with experience, but rather with study and examination of evidence.

My unbelief in God is not the result of a choice. It is because the evidence/information/experience/etc. that I have regarding the existence of such a being hasn't hit that critical point needed to trigger a belief in the existence of God.

My unbelief in God is not the result of a choice.

It is completely by choice. The existance of God cannot be proven or disproven empiraclly, so you have nothing but choice.

It is because the evidence/information/experience/etc. that I have regarding the existence of such a being hasn't hit that critical point needed to trigger a belief in the existence of God.

What I have noticed in your posts is not that there isn't enough evidence, but you reject any evidence that might suggest your nonbelief in God is wrong. If you are unwilling to be convinced, then no amount of evidence would ever be sufficient.

June 22, 2009

.... I don't understand why people want to go to Heaven in the first place ....

That Is Where Our Family Is

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Galatians 4:6

And The LORD Is The Desire Of Our Heart

One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple.

And The Joy Of Our Life

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Jeremiah 15:16

>>>>>()<<<<<

It's Hard To See

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4

If One Confuses Religion

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Hosea 6:6

With Relationship

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:1

Jesus Saves

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:25

Daddy Adopts

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Romans 8:15

Need To Heal? Call

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13

>>>>>()<<<<<

Love, Joe

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews 11:10

June 22, 2009

.... The truth though is I think we weigh different pieces of evidence differently. The evidence that forms your belief in God probably doesn't have much value to me, just as the evidence that has formed my unbelief probably doesn't have much weight to you ....

Dear One, Whatever Mental Shield You May Throw Up Against The Witness Of The LORD, It Will Not Remove The Huge Stone Hanging Over You

And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Luke 20:17-18

If You Humble Yourself Before The LORD, You Will Be Saved

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

John 3:35-36(a)

If You Don't, You Will Be Crushed

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:36(b)

Choose Wisely

Love, Joe

June 22, 2009

I agree with you. As stated earlier, I don't mean these examples (experience/learning/study) as an exhaustive list but for practical reasons I don't type out every possible thing that can contribute to belief.

The problem is that your assertion is that belief is not a conscious choice. The fact that I can and have cited several types of "beliefs" that are in fact, the result of conscious choice and not the result of practical experience, your position stands refuted.

Even though you couldn't directly experience the stove I could still explain how it works, how it is constructed, provide testimonies from others about it's safety, etc. Solely through this evidence I may be able to change your belief that this stove is safe to touch even though I couldn't actually prove it. Who knows, maybe all I would have to do is tell you that it exists for you to change your belief that all hot stoves will burn you, that this one particular stove is safe. How much evidence one needs will vary from person to person but the mechanism is the same. At some point, the weight of evidence will trigger belief.

Aside from being an ovesimplified example, the problem still exists, that you have not provided an example of an unconscious choice to belief. As stated, I can just as easily reject your evidence. I can examine your evidence and dismiss it. If I am unwilling to be convinced, nothing you say or do will change what I currently believe.

All belief or nonbelief is based on choice. The fact that you try to present evidence indicates that you are attempting to affect a choice in the hopes of changing a person's belief.

I don't need proof, just evidence that doesn't contradict itself or reality.

What makes you think you understand reality?

Well I'm sorry you feel that way Shiloh. If I were to look at it purely on the surface I could come to the conclusion about you, that you reject any evidence that might suggest your belief in God is wrong.

That's interesting, cause atheists are always quick to remind us that a negative cannot be proven.

When we ask for evidence of the nonexistence of God, atheists and agnostics on this board crow about the fact that God's nonexistence cannot be demonstrated just as I cannot demonstrate the nonexistence of pink unicorns.

But when we point out that any evidence we provide for God's existence is really not treated in an honest fashion by atheists, you return with the claim that we reject the evidence for God's nonexistence. You can't have it both ways.

rstrats · June 22, 2009

shiloh357,

re:

June 22, 2009

shiloh357,

re:

June 23, 2009

I think I can see where you are coming from Shiloh. It seems we are actually talking about different points in the process of belief.

I am talking about the basis for belief and the fact that true belief is never used in terms of an unconscious decision.

rstats and I have been talking about the actual belief that one has where as I think you are talking about the step before this, about the things that we accept as evidence that forms that belief.

That still does not provide any indicator that belief is not chosen. That true belief is evidentiary defies the assertion that belief is not chosen.

What determines whether you choose to accept or reject a particular piece of evidence?

It would depend on the nature of the evidence. I don't think there is any "one size fits all" answer to that question.

rstrats · June 23, 2009

shiloh357,

re:

June 23, 2009

By

June 24, 2009

Yet that is what many athesits and other unbelievers do. They decided in advance, what type of evidence must exist in order for them to be convinced.
Is that wrong?

Yes, it is. I previously used the example of a court of law. What if the prosecutor was hamstrung by the jury in the same way? What if the jury said, "you must present xyz as evidence. We will only consider xyz as valid evidence."

What if the crime scene did not not contain the evidence that the jury demanded? A fair trial would be possible.

As I stated earlier, most atheists want to predetermine what the evidence must be so that they can insulate themselves against the evidence that does exist.

In that way, they can claim that no REAL evidence of God exists.