Angel Creation

[canuckamuck]

In answer to this question the Bible tells us that, "In the beginning [literally, by periods or ages] God created the heaven [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth," it does not say "Six thousand years ago God created the heavens and the earth," as is generally taught by man. Does anyone know just when the beginning was? If anyone does know, then they know more than God as revealed. If no one knows just when the beginning was then it stands to reason that we just do not know and therefore, we should not teach that the beginning was 6,000 years ago. As far as any man knows it could have been six billion years ago.

When we speak of the six days and the creation of the present life in Earth, we can speak with definate authority that it was 6,000 years ago. This can be seen by the lengths of the various dispensations since Adam.

Some teachers use Exodus 20:8-11; 31:17 to prove that the heavens and the Earth were created in the six days of Gen. 1:3-2:25, and therefore, that they were created about 6,000 years ago. However, nothing is said of the original creation of the heavens and the Earth in these passages. In these Scriptures the Hebrew, asah, meaning to make out of already existing material, is used instead of the word bara, to creat. These verses picture the re-creation work of the six days, and not the original creation "In the beginning." Asah never means to create.

I looked it up. Asah can be used with various literal meanings, all of them having to do with making/creating something. God made the world.

If God says in the 10 commandments (written by His own hand) that He made the heavens and the earth in 6 days. I would be quite concerned if I was telling people in a forum that He used misleading language, and what He really meant was, I renovated the earth in 6 days with the leftovers of mt first attempt which didn't work out so good.

If you do believe that Adam the man was part of the 6 days, then you know he was placed mature in to Garden already producing fruit. These trees did not grow in the 6 days, the were created. Why is it you believe God created somethings, and other things he just reassembled? Why must you limit God?

Do you know what is too hard for God? Tell us what are His limits then?

In the work of the six days, it is stated that God with His hands FORMED each of the living creatures and man out of the dust of the ground (Gen. 1:20-27; 2:7-25; Job 26:13; Rom. 9:20; 1 Tim. 2:13). It is not only clear that God created the heavens and the Earth and all things "In the beginning," or each in its own period, but it is also clear the God FORMED all things with His hands. God formed both light anddarkness (Isa. 24:7). He did not do this on the first day of Gen 1:3-5, for at that time He merely DIVIDED them. Therefore THEY MUST HAVE BEEN CREATED AND FORMED before the first day.

Do you know what light is? it is energy. If you have matter you have energy. Darkness is what you get when the light leaves or is blocked.

In Genesis 1:1 God creates all matter. From that point on light is possible just from reassembling the densities of the matter. You see him doing so in Gen 1:3, and a little more in 1:4

Your Isaiah reference above is wrong, but I found it for you anyway it is (ISA 45:7) You should read the next few verses He does not speak of renovations of the Earth

7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’

8 "Rain down, you heavens, from above, And let the skies pour down righteousness; Let the earth open, let them bring forth salvation, And let righteousness spring up together. I, the LORD, have created it.

9 "Woe to him who strives with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth! Shall the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ Or shall your handiwork say, ‘He has no hands’?

10 Woe to him who says to his father, ‘What are you begetting?’ Or to the woman, ‘What have you brought forth?’"

11 Thus says the LORD, The Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: "Ask Me of things to come concerning My sons; And concerning the work of My hands, you command Me.

12 I have made the earth, And created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded.

Judging from what was done by God in six days, it took God a long time to originnaly create or bring into existence the material and use it to form with His hands each sun, moon, star, planet, and each creature that inhabits the vast endless universe.

You seem to know a lot about God's limitations. Feel free to give your time estimates.

God took two days to form the fish, fowls, beasts,, man and woman. He naturally took a much longer period to originally create and form each inhabitant of the vast heavens and the many animals and inhabitants who originally lived on the Earth during Lucifer's kingdom, long before the chaos of Gen 1:2 and the six days of Gen.1:3-2-25. In other words, if God took six days to restore one little planet to a habitable state and form new inhabitants for the earth, He would naturally take a much longer time to originally create and form with His hands the vast universe with all of its innumerable suns and planets along with their inhabitants

Nothing new here, you simply can't get past the fact that God is omnipotent and that He did what He says He did.

I think we are at an impasse Mr Hazard. I do thank you for solidly cementing some of my theories. Many of the verses you have selected have uncovered where some of my confusion was coming from, and now I know that much of the confusion comes from people like you reading things into Scripture that is not there.

Edited June 30, 2009 by canuckamuck

[sheya joie]

It is my understanding that there was no death before Adam's sin.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

So how could there have been that 'Lucifer flood' with massive amounts of death before Adam was created?

[HAZARD]

canuckamuck,

"I realize in Job 38 there is mention of the sons of God rejoicing and also the morning stars singing during the setting of the foundation of Earth. But that does not necessarily separate them from arriving early in the 7 day event. Even Satan could have been created and cast from heaven in this time frame, and actually it makes sense to me that he did.

Question 2 is: Where did Satan get cast down to?"

.

I know who is confused mate and it isnt me. You ask questions like this above and when given Scriptures which answer the question you have all the answers any way which do not align themselves with Scripture.

God rested on the seventh day so it was only six days not seven, or didnt you know this either? Maybe God worked on the seventh day while He rested? You tell me, you seem to have all the answeres?

In Isa. 14:12-14 we have statements which cannot possibly of an earthly King. The passage is universally refering to the fall of Satan. We can quote it and note the facts.

"How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which dist weaken the nations! For thou art hast said in thine heart, I WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN, I WILL EXALT MY THRONE above the stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I WILL ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE like the most High," Now note the following facts this passage proves of Satan:

1. That his name is Lucifer.

2. That he was a son of the morning, and therefore, no earthly man.

3. That he fell from Heaven. This could never be spoken of a man. Satan is the only person in all Scripture who is spoken of as falling from Heaven (Luke 10:18).

4. That he was cut down to the ground in his fall.

5. That he weakened the nations on Earth.

6. That he was exalted in his heart.

7. That he invaded hHeaven where God rules.

8. That he was a KING, for he had a Throne and SUBJECTS over whom he ruled.

9. That he wanted to exalt his kingdom above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven itself to dethrone God.

10. That he wanted to be worshiped in the congregation of God (Ps. 72:2; 82:1; Isa. 6:1).

11. That he led a rebellion against God but was defeated.

12. That his kingdom was on Earth, or he never could have tried to ascend above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven. When a kingdom is located under the clouds it has to be on the Earth.

13. That the ground, clouds, stars, and Heaven were already created.

14. That it had to be before Adam, for this was not the position of Lucifer when he was in Adam's Eden. Adam had dominion at that time. Lucifer had no kingdom on the Earth at the time of Adam and he has not had one since in the sense of a visible personal rule on Earth. He has only ruled through others since Adam's day; so this must refer to a time before Adam.

15. That he was not in Heaven when he rebelled, else he could not have desired to ascend into Heaven. He was under the stars, or he could not have desired to be exalted above the stars. He was under the clouds, or he could not have desired to ascend above them.

16. That God's throne is located in the north part of the universe (Psalms 75:6-7). Thus, this passage proves the location of Satan's original kingdom and the time of his fall. It was located on Earth, and his fall was before Adam, for he was al;reday a fallen creature when he entered Adam' Eden.

In Coll. 1:15-18 we read of Christ creating thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers in Heaven and on Earth. They were located somewhere in the heavens and on the Earth. Lucifer was given a kingdom here on Earth, as proved by the passages cited above. His own subjects were earthly creatures of various kinds which were destroyed when the flood of Gen. 1:2 came upon the Earth. God created the Earth to be inhabited by earthly creatures (Isa. 45:18). They are called "nations" in the above passages. The demons who are now Satans emissaries could well be the spirits of the pre-Adamites. At any rate they are not part of the creation at the time of Adam. Thus Isaiah teaches the the Earth was inhabited before Adam and was ruled by Lucifer, whos' kingdom was overthrown when he rebelled.

There is so, so much more found in Scripture regarding this doctrin, many dozens of Scriptures support this. If this is false teaching, it amuses me that no one comes up with nothing more than Noah's flood, which occured much later, did not compleatly destroy the Earth, shake mountains, turn them upside down, turned off the stars and the sun so that there was no light. God had already created the Heavens, they were in existence as well as the Earth only their lights were withheld from shining on the Earth thus causing darkness Gen. 1:2. There was no darkness during Noah's flood? There were men and animals on the earth before Noah's flood, and Noah and his family and the animals survived the flood and were on the Eart after it?

That the Earth ONLY was (became) without form and void (Hebrew tohu vabobu, litterally wast and ruin or desolate and empty), as in Gen. 1:2. That there were mountains of Earth that were shaken and turned upside down by an earthquake so severe, which no doubt caused the remains of animals to be deposited in the very depths of the Earth beneath many layers of solid rock, such as are now been found. Noah's flood never buried animals hundreds of meters beneath solid rock.

Many other scriptures apart from those above can be presented to prove the doctrin of a pre-Adamite world.

To try and put this in a nutshell, God created the heavens first, then the Earth, all in the beginning or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). He caused the heavens and the Earth to be inhabited and gave Lucifer control of the Earth-kingdom, don't believe me, read, (Coll. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Lucifer ruled the earth for God for an unknown period before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and dethrone God.

This is not my idea, read (Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). He was defeated and his kingdom on Earth was destroyed by a flood and the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).

The Earth was turned upside down, a process which caused all the present formations of the Earth. The flood remained on the Earth for an unknown period of time, and then God in six days restored the Earth to a habitable state and made Adam and Eve and his creation to carry out the original plan of God concerning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

I am sure "YOU" will have a way of "TWISTING all the above Scriptures into your pet theory and idea of "Where did Satan get cast down to?"

"I have many questions, but I will begin with this: What is the timeline of creation; in regards to heavenly creatures (angels, seraphim, cherubs…) I am leaning towards the heavenly creatures being part of the 7 days of creation."

.

Knowing beforehand that you willi gnore Scriptures presented by me in answering your questions, how about shedding some light upon me and giving me your understanding on the above quote? Where in Scripture does it actually say angels were created in the six days? Remembering it was only six days not seven. God rested on the seventh. I ignored the fact that you dont even know how many days it took God to restore the Earth to a habitable state.

[canuckamuck]

Yes I am quite aware that God rested on the seventh day, I knew that when I was three. I consider it to be 7 days because resting is part of the work. That is why we have a seven day week. God considers the 7th day to be quite important.

For you, I will call it creation week so there is less confusion.

I have responded to your misunderstanding of Isaiah 14 at length already, twice.

I have responded to all of your verses in fact. I will not respond to them again, because you did not respond to my detailed comments on them.

Sorry I am unconvinced.

If you would take up the habit of actually reading peoples posts. you would see that I was asking when were the angels created, and then I said I am leaning on the idea (you see, I called it an idea, not a scripture reference) that the angels were created in creation week. So I did not say it is quoted in scripture. But I wanted to know if any one had any ideas that could help me understand.

Like I said before you have helped me quite a lot here by forcing me to look very closely to a huge amount of references. So when you say I ignore your scriptures, you show you did not read my earlier posts where I responded to every one of them.

Edited July 1, 2009 by canuckamuck

[HAZARD]

Yes I am quite aware that God rested on the seventh day, I knew that when I was three. I consider it to be 7 days because resting is part of the work. That is why we have a seven day week. God considers the 7th day to be quite important.

For you, I will call it creation week so there is less confusion.

I have responded to your misunderstanding of Isaiah 14 at length already, twice.

I have responded to all of your verses in fact. I will not respond to them again, because you did not respond to my detailed comments on them.

Sorry I am unconvinced.

If you would take up the habit of actually reading peoples posts. you would see that I was asking when were the angels created, and then I said I am leaning on the idea (you see, I called it an idea, not a scripture reference) that the angels were created in creation week. So I did not say it is quoted in scripture. But I wanted to know if any one had any ideas that could help me understand.

Like I said before you have helped me quite a lot here by forcing me to look very closely to a huge amount of references. So when you say I ignore your scriptures, you show you did not read my earlier posts where I responded to every one of them.

You wrote:

"Yes I am quite aware that God rested on the seventh day, I knew that when I was three. I consider it to be 7 days because resting is part of the work. That is why we have a seven day week. God considers the 7th day to be quite important."

.

You were one bright baby. Read the Bible at age three? I have never ever worked and rested at the same time in my life, and neither has God. Six days God worked and on the seventh day He rested. "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Ex. 20:11).

Its a day of rest not a day of work, which is why God made it holy.

You read the Scriptures but you just dont believe what they say . . !

Well, seeing you are obviously a self proclaimed Bible expert and have all the right answeres, why bother asking questions you already have all the answeres to? What a turnout you turned out to be . . !

Haz.

[canuckamuck]

Well you turned out to be quite unique as well.

If you believe I am saying God worked on the seventh day then I can't change your mind.

I could have said it different, clearly I should have. You can have a victory party over that if you like, I won't mind.

Ask your self this however: why would God mention the seventh day at all if not to demonstrate that a full week of work includes one day of resting?

I see the six days of work and the one day of not working as the seven days of creation, or creation week if you prefer.

Also I never mentioned reading scripture at three, even though some kids can quote it at that age. I said I knew God rested on the seventh day when I was only three. Although I admit I was speaking figuratively. It is possible I was four or five. The point was that even kids know about the day of rest.

Thanks for your interest in my topic. I think we have nothing left to discuss.

Edited July 1, 2009 by canuckamuck

[HAZARD]

"Thanks for your interest in my topic. I think we have nothing left to discuss."

.

I agree . . . !

Haz.

[exrockstar]

I have many questions, but I will begin with this: What is the timeline of creation; in regards to heavenly creatures (angels, seraphim, cherubs

[canuckamuck]

Wrong how, where is your evidence of angels before creation? That verse from Job does not eliminate angel creation from the creation week.

[exrockstar]

Wrong how, where is your evidence of angels before creation? That verse from Job does not eliminate angel creation from the creation week.

they shouted with joy when God laid the foundations of the earth.

reread the scripture