Church of Christ: Cult,sect or true

[Scare Bear]

That is not what I said. I said that repentance in and of itself does save you. Besides, as Yod pointed out, how is sin determined without a law to divide between right and wrong? I John 3:4 tells us that "sin is the transgression of the law." Now that is a New Testament Scripture and it tells us that when we sin, we break God's law. How is that possible if the law was eradicated??? Was John wrong??? Without the law, there is no sin to repent of.

But you cannot be saved without repenting right? Isn't it something you need in order to be forgiven and become a child of God?

Does it matter what they did when they met??? The point is that you cannot point to any place in the NT that commands ONE specific day to meet. Meeting on Sunday is a tradition. It is a good tradition, but it is still just a tradition.

Every first day of the week, giving unto the Lord every first day of the week... sounds to me more like reverance to God than a tradition. I think it is very important on which day we come together to worship the Lord... making it the first day of the week shows you put Him first.

Yes, but that commandment to sing was not given as an instruction as to how to perform weekly worship services. The "singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" is an everyday thing. It is given to us as a matter of daily, personal attitude and behavior. There is nothing in what the Bible says about singing that says, "this is how you will conduct church services," nor is the singing limited to specific day of the week. You are trying read something into the Scriptures that is not there.

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Those two verses alone sound to me like it is something to be done with others, not just alone and what is the best time to do such a thing? Well, when all are gathered together. When are all gathered together? At the first day of the week. I see nothing about musical instruments. I'm not adding to the word... I'm going by what the word says.

Yes,but this not not at all similar to that situation. Nabab and Abihu were told exactly what to do when they entered the Tabernacle. They violated a specific commandment and brought something into the tabernacle that violated that commandment.

Musical instruments do not qualify as a "strange fire" as the New Testament is completely silent on the issue and besides, you cannot compare church services with the ritualism of the Tabernacle. I find it interesting and internally inconsistent for you to claim that the law is eradicated, but then appeal to the law to justify your position against musical instruments. You cannot claim the law is done away with, but then use it to justify your position on theological matters. You cannot have it both ways.

The LAW the LAW is what I do not follow. I do not stone people, I do not sacrifice animals. The Old Testament was written for our learning (Rom. 15:4).

I am sorry, but you are really reaching on that one. For one thing, you don't know if musical instruments were used or not. Secondly, Gentiles who used their musical instruments in worship would not pose a threat to the faith. Sure, you would not want them to bring certain types of songs in praise to the pagan gods, but I think we can give them enough credit to know better than that.

Just a suggestion. But let me ask you this, would it be wrong to add fish to the Lord's Supper?

Baptism was commanded by Christ. It was not given as an option. That does not make it necessary for salvation. I would also add that the people at Cornelius' home were saved and filled with the Spirit BEFORE they were baptized.

If it was commanded by Christ then aren't we supposed to be obedient and follow that command? If we do not follow Christ's commands then are we still saved regardless?

I addressed Cornelius' household already but I'll repost it:

Acts 10 I believe you are talking about when the Holy Spirit comes down on him and his household... You have to be careful and look very closely. It does not say that Cornelius was saved at that point. The Bible does not teach that Holy Spirit activity necessarily indicates personal salvation. In fact, the Bible does not even teach that speaking in tongues indicates salvation. Look at Balaam's donkey! The same line of reasoning would indicate that the donkey was saved. Another example is the high priest Caiaphas in John 11:51. Caiaphas had rejected Jesus and was plotting Jesus' death, yet he prophesied that Jesus would die for the sins of the people. John even says "this he spake not of himself" indicating that the Holy Spirit was involved in the prophesy.

[Guest shiloh357]

Many people are in a constant dance with the Scriptures. These dancers twist here, turn there and generally maneuver all around in an attempt to see in the Bible what they themselves want rather than looking for what God wants (cf. 2 Peter 3:16). This has been done with the teachings on God

[Guest shiloh357]

the LAW is what I do not follow. I do not stone people, I do not sacrifice animals. The Old Testament was written for our learning (Rom. 15:4).

Every Christian ethic finds its origin in the law. There is NO part of the Christian life that is not part of the Law.

Just a suggestion. But let me ask you this, would it be wrong to add fish to the Lord's Supper?

I was at a church that was giving communion and they ran out of grape juice, so they used water instead. It is not the elements that are important, but the intent of the heart.

If it was commanded by Christ then aren't we supposed to be obedient and follow that command?

I never said we are not to baptized.

Acts 10 I believe you are talking about when the Holy Spirit comes down on him and his household... You have to be careful and look very closely. It does not say that Cornelius was saved at that point. The Bible does not teach that Holy Spirit activity necessarily indicates personal salvation. In fact, the Bible does not even teach that speaking in tongues indicates salvation. Look at Balaam's donkey! The same line of reasoning would indicate that the donkey was saved. Another example is the high priest Caiaphas in John 11:51. Caiaphas had rejected Jesus and was plotting Jesus' death, yet he prophesied that Jesus would die for the sins of the people. John even says "this he spake not of himself" indicating that the Holy Spirit was involved in the prophesy.

Baptism is for believers. Even those who teach that baptism is necessary for salvation will concur that one must be baptized as one who has received the gospel. So to argue that the Cornelius was not saved, is a bit absurd. Cornelius and his house had received the Holy Spirit. (Acts 10:47) Balaam

[wyguy]

One of the greatest present day evangelists is Billy Graham and he believes in salvation by grace through faith alone. He has lived a life of impeccable holiness.

And yet, in his later years, has stated that Jesus might not be the only way to heaven.

Just sayin' it's not wise to put so much faith in men.

[Guest shiloh357]

One of the greatest present day evangelists is Billy Graham and he believes in salvation by grace through faith alone. He has lived a life of impeccable holiness.

And yet, in his later years, has stated that Jesus might not be the only way to heaven.

That is not true. The conspiracy nuts that have propagated that are guilty of bearing false witness. I have heard those sound bites for myself, and people have assigned values to him that are not true.

I would not put too much faith in conspiracy theories.

[wyguy]

One of the greatest present day evangelists is Billy Graham and he believes in salvation by grace through faith alone. He has lived a life of impeccable holiness.

And yet, in his later years, has stated that Jesus might not be the only way to heaven.

That is not true. The conspiracy nuts that have propagated that are guilty of bearing false witness. I have heard those sound bites for myself, and people have assigned values to him that are not true.

I would not put too much faith in conspiracy theories.

In a 2006 Newsweek interview, Billy Graham was asked if Heaven will be closed to Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and others who do not believe in Christ. This was his reply:

[OneLight]

One of the greatest present day evangelists is Billy Graham and he believes in salvation by grace through faith alone. He has lived a life of impeccable holiness.

And yet, in his later years, has stated that Jesus might not be the only way to heaven.

That is not true. The conspiracy nuts that have propagated that are guilty of bearing false witness. I have heard those sound bites for myself, and people have assigned values to him that are not true.

I would not put too much faith in conspiracy theories.

In a 2006 Newsweek interview, Billy Graham was asked if Heaven will be closed to Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and others who do not believe in Christ. This was his reply:

“Those are decisions only the Lord will make…I believe the love of God is absolute. He said he gave his son for the whole world, and I think he loves everybody regardless of what label they have.”

And from an interview with Robert Schuller from May 31, 1997

Here is an excerpt:

Dr. Schuller: “Tell me, what is the future of Christianity?”

Dr. Graham: “Well, Christianity and being a true believer, you know, I think there’s the body of Christ which comes from all the Christian groups around the world, or outside the Christian groups. I think that everybody that loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they’re conscious of it or not, they’re members of the body of Christ. And I don’t think that we’re going to see a great sweeping revival that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time.”

“What God is doing today is calling people out of the world for His name. Whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the body of Christ because they’ve been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts they need something that they don’t have and they turn to the only light they have and I think they’re saved and they’re going to be with us in heaven.”

Dr. Schuller: “What I hear you saying is that it’s possible for Jesus Christ to come into a human heart and soul and life even if they’ve been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you’re saying?”

Dr. Graham: “Yes it is because I believe that. I’ve met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, have never heard of Jesus but they’ve believed in their hearts that there is a God and they tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived.”

Dr. Schuller: “This is fantastic. I’m so thrilled to hear you say that. There’s a wideness in God’s mercy.

Dr. Graham: There is. There definitely is.”

And you, with all you wisdom, see this as impossible? Have you cleared this with God or informed Him how to accept those who do not know Him into His Kingdom? Tell me, brother ... is this really impossible, to know God through His creation enough to know that there is more then what you already know? If you think it is, then read Romans 1:20 ... "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse" I wonder, out of all His creartion, how many believed in Him without hearing the name Jesus?

[wyguy]

And you, with all you wisdom, see this as impossible? Have you cleared this with God or informed Him how to accept those who do not know Him into His Kingdom?

It's simple. One must believe that Jesus is the Son of God who takes away the sins of the world to be saved. Muslims don't believe this, nor Buddhists, nor any other religion except Christianity. Heck, Muslims don't even believe Jesus was crucified.

So, yep - that pretty much excludes 'em.

[OneLight]

And you, with all you wisdom, see this as impossible? Have you cleared this with God or informed Him how to accept those who do not know Him into His Kingdom?

It's simple. One must believe that Jesus is the Son of God who takes away the sins of the world to be saved. Muslims don't believe this, nor Buddhists, nor any other religion except Christianity. Heck, Muslims don't even believe Jesus was crucified.

So, yep - that pretty much excludes 'em.

When someone is dedicated to their faith, I agree, but that is not what Billy said. Reread what you posted.

[wyguy]

And you, with all you wisdom, see this as impossible? Have you cleared this with God or informed Him how to accept those who do not know Him into His Kingdom?

It's simple. One must believe that Jesus is the Son of God who takes away the sins of the world to be saved. Muslims don't believe this, nor Buddhists, nor any other religion except Christianity. Heck, Muslims don't even believe Jesus was crucified.

So, yep - that pretty much excludes 'em.

When someone is dedicated to their faith, I agree, but that is not what Billy said. Reread what you posted.

Quote: "I think that everybody that loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they