Law Vs Grace, or Law AND Grace?

[WolfBitn]

When you say 'the law', people think that you mean the Mosaic Law. It gets a bit mixed up when you call definitions of righteous behavior, 'laws of God'. and then talk about 'the law' in the same sentence. I was hoping you would say which you mean, but so far it seems you think they are one and the same.

These two sets of defintions (laws) overlap, but the religious portion of Moses' Law is done, we do not need to adhere to all the precepts that the Israelites had to adhere to. In this sense, the law has indeed passed away, and that is what Paul was talking about in in 2 Cor 3: The new covenant is superior because it completes the requirement of the law and it is uncorrupted and sufficient for all time. God's eternal law (which is to be righteous before God and man) not the Mosaic law, is now written on our hearts. We know when we are in error, and we know how to make it right.

I am not condemned by the Mosaic law, I am covered by the blood of Jesus. My righteousness comes through Christ not through the tenants of religion. It is the enemy who tells us to keep the law, because by the law we miss Christ. If you keep telling God you are a sinner, He will be forced to believe you. I prefer to be grateful for my salvation. I tell God I am happy he set me free. When someone gives me a gift I do not tell them it is not good enough.

The 10 commandments are law though correct? And we are condemned by them because they reveal our sin, you seem to agree with this thus far but i'm just making sure. And why would we have to keep telling God we are a sinner for Him to believe this? Wouldnt you agree we are ALL sinners and He already knows this?

[Rick-Parker]

You seem to be missing the point of the OP my friend

Adam had a law, dont eat of the tree, Noah had a law, build the ark, Moses had a law, we all have a law which we live under... another point being the law has never passed away... and until heaven and earth passes not one jot of it ever will. You cant be a murder or adulterer and enter the kingdom of heaven

Jesus is our sacrifice, we come in repentance and God has always required both when we transgress the law

Well you are going have to clear up what you mean when you say "the law" because I think this argument is bordering on silly. There are a lot of things under the law that I do not keep, I like my bacon for example. If I was under the law, I would have to repent of my breakfast.

Also, why do you keep thinking I said you can be a murderer and enter the kingdom of heaven, what I did say was, I can not love God and my neighbor and be a murderer at the same time.

But I will say this also, many murderers will find the kingdom of heaven when they are washed clean and forgiven through by the blood of Christ and the grace of God. Was not Paul a contributor to the murder of Stephen; and many other saints too I assume.

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

^^^ thats what i mean...

So you believe an unrepentant murderer can inheirit the Kingdom of God? Unrepentent adulterers? We can break these laws and not have to repent for them and still make it?

Where do you get that from? Even I know that is not what canuckamuck is saying.

[canuckamuck]

The 10 commandments are law though correct? And we are condemned by them because they reveal our sin, you seem to agree with this thus far but i'm just making sure. And why would we have to keep telling God we are a sinner for Him to believe this? Wouldnt you agree we are ALL sinners and He already knows this?

The 10 commandments are the summation of what is righteous, moral, and ethical behavior in God's eyes. The Law, as it was detailed by Moses includes chapters of information. So much info it is called the Book of the Law. These two things are not the same but the later is based on the former. When you hear of the Book of the Law and the Ten Commandments, do you think of them as the same thing?

I agree however that using the Ten Commandments as your guide to righteous living is the right thing to do. I am not however condemned.

Under the blood I am not a sinner, The Lord does not remember my sin, it is as far from me as the east is from the west. But if I say I am a sinner when I have already repented it is like telling Jesus he failed.

Edited July 24, 2009 by canuckamuck

[WolfBitn]

The 10 commandments are law though correct? And we are condemned by them because they reveal our sin, you seem to agree with this thus far but i'm just making sure. And why would we have to keep telling God we are a sinner for Him to believe this? Wouldnt you agree we are ALL sinners and He already knows this?

The 10 commandments are the summation of what is righteous, moral, and ethical behavior in God's eyes. The Law, as it was detailed by Moses includes chapters of information. So much info it is called the Book of the Law. These two things are not the same but the later is based on the former. When you hear of the Book of the Law and the Ten Commandments, do you think of them as the same thing?

I agree however that using the Ten Commandments as your guide to righteous living is the right thing to do. I am not however condemned.

Under the blood I am not a sinner, The Lord does not remember my sin, it is as far from me as the east is from the west. But if I say I am a sinner when I have already repented it is like telling Jesus he failed.

What do you think of Jesus telling us that when we have done all that is our responsibility to do, that we should say within ourselves that we are unworthy servants that have done no more than our responsibility?

Also

Matthew 5:17

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:18

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

7.Matthew 12:2

But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

8.Matthew 12:4

How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

9.Matthew 12:5

Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Note in the first 2 passages we see that Jesus says the law shall never pass. The 10 commandments are also the law... THEY seem to be the primary law which shall never pass.

Note also in the last 3 verses that the levitical law seems to be more 'optional' in this present age. Jesus not only broke the law, He also excused the breaking of levitical law, yet never excuses the breaking of the primary 10.

I agree with you that we need not keep levitical law, and yet these primary 10 seem to be binding til heaven and earth pass... it isnt the levitical law that has condemned us aas sinners, but the primary 10 have, and they have also allowed the grace of God to shine through to us in a way we can be thankful and appreciative.

[Ovedya]

What is the entirety of the law (including the commandments) summed up with?

[Guest man]

What is the entirety of the law (including the commandments) summed up with?

Romans 13:9

[WolfBitn]

What is the entirety of the law (including the commandments) summed up with?

ill be glad to answer that as soon as you can tell me which of the 10 commandments God doesnt mind you breaking

[WolfBitn]

What is the entirety of the law (including the commandments) summed up with?

ill be glad to answer that as soon as you can tell me which of the 10 commandments God doesnt mind you breaking

That is easy, he does not mind me breaking any of them as long as I still keep the two that Jesus told me to keep...

Matthew 22:36-40

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

this great verse you gave for us should help...

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. This word "Fulfil" means to to render full, i.e. to complete or to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out. This is what Jesus did to the "Law".

Lets not be so vague Gator... no one profits from vaguery

Which of the 10 can you break with Gods approval?

Which of the 10 can you live in without repentance and make it to the kingdom of heaven?

[canuckamuck]

What is the entirety of the law (including the commandments) summed up with?

Romans 13:9

No, 13:10

[WolfBitn]

What is the entirety of the law (including the commandments) summed up with?

Romans 13:9

No, 13:10

Heres the point fellas...

The law AND grace stand and theres no way arounf this, it cant be argued out of. The law condemns us, Grace saves us. No unrepentant murderer, adulterer, or one who live in covetousness will make it into the kingdom of God... ALL such inclding the fearful, will be cast into the lake of fire according to Revelation

IF we love God with all our hearts soul and mind and love our neighbors as ourselves, we will NOT break the 10 commandments. Jesus asked WHY call em Lord and do not the things I say?

Now my next question, HOW can we break the statutes of God and say we love Him or call Him Lord? Are we not our own lord when we serve ourselves and not Him?