loosing salvation

[kross]

Hebrews 6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

There are those who say that this scripture means that a person who is saved and goes to church and then doesn't go to church and denies the gospel, that they have lost their salvation.

When I was a teenager, I made a run to the alter and asked JESUS to save me. I then turned away from that walk for 20 years. Now I am a saved servant of JESUS CHRIST.

How is it that I am able to to be saved if this scriptures says that I am lost if I have tasted and turned away?

Or, is it possible that one can be in the fellowship of believers, eat from the table, feel the HOLY SPIRIT's presence, see the miracles, and then leave the church having never been saved.

Judas Escariat would come to mind.

I am of the belief that this scripture doesn't refer to those whom Paul has already written about as being those HE "foreknew, and called, and sanctified, and glorified, and justified." This work is a work of GOD and it is completed from the beginning. To inperpret the scripture from Hebrews in a way that contradicts this perfectly clear teaching from Romans does not seem to be good Bible study.

I know that this will be a lively debate and it has been done to death. But there are always new people and broadened understandings that can have merit.

Try not to get ugly people, it is annoying when a good thread gets closed because of bad manners.

[pokemaughan]

Mmm, challenging question.

The most important thing to establish first is the definition or character of the phrases-

once enlightened,

tasted the heavenly gift,

become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

fall away, and

renew... again to repentence.

It's a tough call, and there's a lot of things to take into account, namely the context of the letter, and of course the context of how this applies to God in the Big Picture.

I think the key phrase here is fall away. To what degree must one backslide to 'fall away'? The first thing that comes to mind is a proclaimed 'ex-Christian' who now holds onto Islam or atheism or what-have-you instead of proclaiming Christ as God and their savior. I would call that falling away- to which this passage would make sense. I imagine there is no heart harder than that of a proclaimed 'ex-Christian'.

[OneLight]

Then why would Christ tell us differently?

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

It seems to me that those who do not overcome will be removed, meaning that they were in the Book of Life at one point.

[pokemaughan]

Then why would Christ tell us differently?

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

It seems to me that those who do not overcome will be removed, meaning that they were in the Book of Life at one point.

I guess the thing that rings out to me is God's overwhelming grace. Genuine repentance is met with redemption and salvation to all that accept it, correct? It's hard for me to imagine as a mere man that genuine repentance could be denied if you screwed up one too many times, so to speak. At that point it would pointless to live for God if He had already rejected you here on earth. Like I said, I think those who fall away are really the ones who forsake the Gospel for good. Just outright quit believing forevermore and don't bother coming back. But again, these passages are tough to call.

[OneLight]

Then why would Christ tell us differently?

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

It seems to me that those who do not overcome will be removed, meaning that they were in the Book of Life at one point.

I guess the thing that rings out to me is God's overwhelming grace. Genuine repentance is met with redemption and salvation to all that accept it, correct? It's hard for me to imagine as a mere man that genuine repentance could be denied if you screwed up one too many times, so to speak. At that point it would pointless to live for God if He had already rejected you here on earth. Like I said, I think those who fall away are really the ones who forsake the Gospel for good. Just outright quit believing forevermore and don't bother coming back. But again, these passages are tough to call.

Yes, it is tough. God, being God, would not place someone in the Book of Life if they did not belong. To me, God still allows the free will of man to continue after salvation, allowing them to change their mind.

Even Lucifer, who walked and lived with God, chose to turn from Him. Our nature is the same nature as he had, sinful. Lucifer had an excellent position in God, yet he turned and was removed.

[Hunterpoet]

I have always thought that in order for a person to loose their salvation, they would have to really work at it.

Please consider John Wesley's notes:

And having fallen away-There is not a supposition, but a plain relation to fact. The apostle here describes the case of those who have lost both their faith, hope and love,(Heb.6:10), and that wilfully, (Heb.10:26). Of these wilful total apostates he declares, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, (though they were renewed once), either to the foundation, or anything built thereon.

Seeing they crucify the Son of God afresh-They use Him to the utmost indignity.

And put Him to open shame-causing His glorious name to be blasphemed.

It occurs to me after having read the above and other commentaries on Heb.6:6 , that you not only have to fall away, but then take an active role campaigning against Christ Himself.

[Rhonda Lou]

Hebrews 6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

There are those who say that this scripture means that a person who is saved and goes to church and then doesn't go to church and denies the gospel, that they have lost their salvation.

When I was a teenager, I made a run to the alter and asked JESUS to save me. I then turned away from that walk for 20 years. Now I am a saved servant of JESUS CHRIST.

How is it that I am able to to be saved if this scriptures says that I am lost if I have tasted and turned away?

Or, is it possible that one can be in the fellowship of believers, eat from the table, feel the HOLY SPIRIT's presence, see the miracles, and then leave the church having never been saved.

Judas Escariat would come to mind.

I am of the belief that this scripture doesn't refer to those whom Paul has already written about as being those HE "foreknew, and called, and sanctified, and glorified, and justified." This work is a work of GOD and it is completed from the beginning. To inperpret the scripture from Hebrews in a way that contradicts this perfectly clear teaching from Romans does not seem to be good Bible study.

I know that this will be a lively debate and it has been done to death. But there are always new people and broadened understandings that can have merit.

Try not to get ugly people, it is annoying when a good thread gets closed because of bad manners.

I do not believe that it is possible for one to lose his/her salvation if the person is truly saved. To be truly saved, one has to believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, paid the penalty for sin on the cross, and been resurrected to take away the power of sin. I believe one must not only accept that every person sins, but that the person himself/herself has sinned, to repent -- turn away from that sin nature forever -- and depend on Jesus for not only an insurance policy ffor heaven, but to be a transformed, changed person on earth. What Jesus did physically, we must do spiritually. It is a transaction whereby we die to our own "selves" and our goals are in line with God's -- it is confessing Jesus as LORD and believing God raised Him from the dead. One can say that they believe all sin and that Jesus died to pay the penalty for their sins as an intellectual fact.

You asked if it was possible to taste God, partake God, etc., without actually being saved. Yes, it is. I was raised in the church, but saved when I was about 30. The church I was raised in taught the truth about salvation, and I was even involved in church activities -- but I never made it personal for my self, if that makes any sense. I was raised to believe that all men sins and that Jesus saved us by his death -- that's as far as the gospel gets, and I would have believed that to my dying day because it is what I heard from the time I was born. But I never thought through the ramifications of that, I never accepted it for myself, I never made it personal. 2 Timothy 3:1-5 speaks of how men will be in the last days, and concludes, "having a form of godliness but denying its power." (2 Timothy 3:5a) This was me, and it speaks of many people in church these days.

It is good news that Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins, and even better news that Jesus then rose to break the power of sin. To me, the best news, is that the faith to believe, and the grace are of God. He draws us to Him, making us want Him. He gives us the faith to believe. Then, He indwells us with the Holy Spirit. Then, as we behold Jesus, as in a mirror, He transforms us into that image. To be saved is to be CHANGED -- not so that we can go to heaven, though I look forward to the day I can drop the flesh!! Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we are saved by faith, not of works. But verse 10 says that we are saved so that we can do the good works that GOD created for us to do, not works of the flesh, but works which can only be accomplished with Him working through us. Romas 8:29 says that we were saved "to be conformed to the image of His Son." It's not about us getting to heaven when we die, it is us being living sacrifices here on earth as He transforms us into His image, and knowing as we do so, that we have the hope of heaven where we will not yield to flesh or Satan any linger, where we can praise and serve God eternally!!

NOW, having said that, if a person is truly saved, then it is impossible for them to lose their salvation -- because as being saved depended on God, KEEPING saved depends on God. Ephesians 1:13-14 says, "In Him you also trusted after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." 1 Corinthians 1:8-9 says that our Lord Jesus Christ "will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." We cannot lose our salvation because it does not depend on us, it depends on God, and He will be a liar if He does not keep us saved, once He has truly saved us, because His promise is that our inheritance in heaven is "incorruptible and undefiled and does not fade away."

However, I believe that the Bible also speaks of sanctification. God IS in the process of making those truly saved better and better, but we'll get there faster if we cooperate with Him. If the Holy Spirit tells us to do one thing and we constantly do another, we get what the Bible calls a "seared" conscience. God is still in us, bet we can't hear Him. If we never let Him work in us, it could get to the point where He takes our life to save our soul (1 John 5:16). Such a one is left insecure as to whether he has ever BEEN saved. We can't judge it. My grandfather was anti-God most of his life, and I discovered very late in his life that when he was a child, he wanted to study theology, but a "man of the cloth" said something so anti-Christian that it turned him away from God for most of His life. Yet, God was faithful, and just before his death, he was brought back. Unfortunately, God was not able to reach much fruit through him, but those truly saved, God will bring back, or kill the body to save the soul. There have been examples on Worthy Boards of those who have become angry at God for some reason or other, and walked away from the faith. Did they ever truly have it? Unknown. Did they just get angry? Unknown, but God knows. Paul though he was doing the will of God until three days of blindness after an encounter with Jesus brought him to his senses. God saved those he's called and keeps them saved. So, if one is TRULY saved, one can not lose their salvation. But only God knows those truly saved. The best thing the rest of us can do is repent, turn away from the sin nature, make Jesus our Lord, and walk with Him, letting Him change us. Then the whole thing becomes a moot question.

[Guest man]

I have always thought that in order for a person to loose their salvation, they would have to really work at it.

Please consider John Wesley's notes:

And having fallen away-There is not a supposition, but a plain relation to fact. The apostle here describes the case of those who have lost both their faith, hope and love,(Heb.6:10), and that wilfully, (Heb.10:26). Of these wilful total apostates he declares, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, (though they were renewed once), either to the foundation, or anything built thereon.

Seeing they crucify the Son of God afresh-They use Him to the utmost indignity.

And put Him to open shame-causing His glorious name to be blasphemed.

It occurs to me after having read the above and other commentaries on Heb.6:6 , that you not only have to fall away, but then take an active role campaigning against Christ Himself.

I think that simply denying Him within the heart would be enough, because that's what God searches.

But then again, if one were to deny Him from within, their outward actions would probably demonstrate that denial.

Taking an active role campaigning against Christ can take on many forms. One can remain silent, and God is still able to see the denial.

[Trusting Jesus]

Here's a commentary that might be interesting:

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/graham/g15.html

<>< ><>

Nathele

[Guest man]

Then why would Christ tell us differently?

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

It seems to me that those who do not overcome will be removed, meaning that they were in the Book of Life at one point.

I guess the thing that rings out to me is God's overwhelming grace. Genuine repentance is met with redemption and salvation to all that accept it, correct? It's hard for me to imagine as a mere man that genuine repentance could be denied if you screwed up one too many times, so to speak. At that point it would pointless to live for God if He had already rejected you here on earth. Like I said, I think those who fall away are really the ones who forsake the Gospel for good. Just outright quit believing forevermore and don't bother coming back. But again, these passages are tough to call.

But then there's this,

Matthew 7

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