Mary's appearence at fatima

[ServingHim]

my point is that if we have a doctrine that is not Biblically grounded or supported, it must be considered a doctrine of man. That is a very dangerous place to be when salvation is at stake.

so for me to honor, love, and hold Mary in high esteem could jeapordize my eternal life with the Father?

Also, the Trinity is nowhere spelled out in the Bible alone, yet we have the Church to thank for defining it for us (stupid sheep). All Christians believe it YET it is nowhere in the bible? One God, Three Distinct Persons, yet ONE God. It's a mystery. This is nowhere taught explicitly and cogently in scripture so that an ordinary person can read and know that God is Trinitarian. That word never is noted ever in Scripture. Paul speaks of holding to 'traditions' (2 Thess 2:15) that were handed down by EITHER 'word of mouth' OR written...so I don't believe it is a 'tradition' of man like OSAS, but a true, Godly 'tradition' that our Lord is NOT insulted by. . .one handed down through generations who KNEW the blessed Mother and I also believe that it evolved over time...this is my humble belief. We can always agree to disagree.

Even if she were translated like Enoch and Elijah, does that mean we should pray to her? Do we pray to Enoch or Elijah? God forbid, may it never be.

praying TO and asking for prayers are two different things...I don't pray TO Mary, but 'sometimes' seek her intercession, just as I ask other good friends to 'intercede' in prayer for me. As far as Enoch or Elijah, I know we'll meet them someday, but I don't have any particular reason to ask intercession of them, though I know they are with the Father.

Know this SH, I respect your position, but I just don

[ServingHim]

excellent summation, GoodSamaritan. Thank you!

Edited July 22, 2004 by ServingHim

[stevehut]

praying TO and asking for prayers are two different things...I don't pray TO Mary, but 'sometimes' seek her intercession,

"Hail Mary, full of grace and love, the Lord is with thee. Most beautiful art thou among women..."

How is this not praying to Mary? And why does it matter how beautiful she is?

You call this a request for intercessory prayer, just as I would ask a friend to pray for me. As it happens, I ask my friends to pray for me all the time. But I have never addressed them like this.

[Guest LadyC]

me neither.

[GoodSamaritan]

How is this not praying to Mary?  And why does it matter how beautiful she is?

You got that prayer incorrect. It's Hail Mary Full of Grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art though among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

This is petitioning Mary to pray for us to God, not asking her to save our souls.

You call this a request for intercessory prayer, just as I would ask a friend to pray for me. As it happens, I ask my friends to pray for me all the time. But I have never addressed them like this.

Since we consider Mary a friend who's already in Heaven and also the Mother of our Savior, why would we NOT address her in a more reverent tone than my buddy? I need the prayers of both but one has led a life considered THE example of piety by one of God's creatures and the other one is rife with sin. Do you address your grandmother in a different way than you do your pal from high school?

If Mary was not considered worthy of veneration, would anyone be claiming these visions?

God is not bound by what we consider 'possible'. Elijah appeared, Moses appeared, and others throughout the Bible appeared, why not the Mother of God? Elijah and Moses were human just as Mary was. The difference is that we have documented text which reveals that Elijah and Moses both did sin, while we see none regarding Mary. God reveals himself in many different ways. Do you deny that the first Christians venerated Mary and considered her Mother of God? If so, history does not support your position.

As early as 110 AD, bishops of the Church were writing of their veneration of Mary. Around 110, the last apostle was leaving this earth. If the veneration was already present, in some form, can we not assume that this was installed as part of the faith from the Apostles? How can we assume anything else? I'll grant that these writings are not deemed inspired but they do vividly point out what was happening in the early Church.

GS

[One Way]

You got that prayer incorrect. It's Hail Mary Full of Grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art though among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

This is petitioning Mary to pray for us to God, not asking her to save our souls.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he (Jesus) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Why do you need Mary?

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Where is there room for Mary here?

Mariology is completely unbiblical and is what I call idolatry in the way I see it practiced. I can't tell you how many vehicles I drive by where they have a picture of Mary on it. I don't see these people put pictures of their friends on the back of their windshield. So, I don't accept the argument of "just like you would treat your friend."

Sorry to come out so strongly, but in light of the verses above I think Jesus is competing with Mary for your attention in the RCC.

Regarding that "prayer."

"Hail Mary Full of Grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art though among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.'

Hail Mary sure sounds like worship to me.

Lastly, I always find it interesting how this "prayer" is uttered over and over and over. You know, "say 20 hail Mary's, etc."

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Saying "hail Mary" over and over sure sounds like "vain repetitions" and "much speaking." Why isn't 1 "hail Mary" enough? Why do you need 10 or 20? And, like I stated earlier, why do you need Mary at all when you have Jesus?

Help me understand this one.

Where in the Bible are we exhorted to appeal to Mary for anything?

[Guest LadyC]

ok, so catholics don't pray to mary.

then why, in the catholic prayer book, do we find the following?

O most pure heart of Mary, full of goodness, show your love towards us. Let the flame of your heart, O Mary, descend on all people. We love you im- mensely. Impress on our hearts true love so that we may long for you. O Mary, gentle and humble of heart, remember us when we sin. You know that all people sin. Grant that through your most pure and motherly heart, we may be healed from every spiritual sickness. Grant that we may always experience the goodness of your motherly heart, and that through the flame of your heart we may be converted. Amen.

in case anyone missed it, that's a prayer TO mary, asking for her to show HER love, asking her to help us LONG for HER, and asking her to remember us when we sin and heal us from spiritual sickness. and it ends with amen.

the bible says by HIS stripes we are healed. the bible says as a deer pants for water, so our heart longs for HIM.

and this one...

I, N., a faithless sinner-- renew and ratify today in thy hands, O Immaculate Mother, the vows of my Baptism; I renounce forever Satan, his pomps and works; and I give myself entirely to Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Wisdom, to carry my cross after Him all the days of my life, and to be more faithful to Him than I have ever been before.

In the presence of all the heavenly court I choose thee this day, for my Mother and Mistress. I deliver and consecrate to thee, as thy slave, my body and soul, my goods, both interior and exterior, and even the value of all my good actions, past, present and future; leaving to thee the entire and full right of disposing of me, and all that belongs to me, without exception, according to thy good pleasure, for the greater glory of God, in time and in eternity. Amen.

who are we asking to renew us in this prayer? and after making a small mention of giving ourselves fully to Christ, we then say we deliver ourselves and consecrate to MARY, and choose her as our mother and mistress. we choose to be in servitude to HER, inside and out, giving HER the full right of disposing us and our posessions, according to HER pleasure... for glory of God. i don't see how serving her glorifies God, JMO.

or this one... the chant sung or otherwise vocalized at mass, i believe? i remember this from when i went to mass with a boyfriend i had at the age of 18...

O Mother worthy of all praise, you who have given birth to the Word, the Holiest of the Holy, accept this present offering, deliver all men from every affliction, and svae from the future punishment those who cry out to you: "Alleluia!"

mary is worthy of all praise? mary, accept this offering? mary deliver all men from affliction? mary save from condemnation those who cry out to you? (note, not all who cry out to Jesus!)

ninth chant:

O Mother of God, we see the best of speakers become as mute as fish in your regard, for they could not explain how you could give birth while remaining a virgin. As for us, while marveling at the mystery, we cry out to you with faith:

we cry out to mary in faith?

also from the catholic prayer book:

We turn to you for protection, holy Mother of God. Listen to our prayers and help us in our needs. Save us from every danger, glorious and blessed Virgin.

we turn to who for protection? listen to what? our prayers???? save us from danger blessed virgin???

that's God's job, isn't it?

also in the catholic prayer book... aspirations to mary...

SWEET HEART of Mary, be my salvation!

ok, i'm getting rather nauseated now.

or how about these two?

Consecration to Mary

O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy, Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners, we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart. We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are. To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls; to thee we give our homes, our families, our country. We desire that all that is in us and around us may belong to thee, and may share in the benefits of thy motherly benediction. And that this act of consecration may be truly efficacious and lasting, we renew this day at thy feet the promises of our Baptism and our first Holy Communion. We pledge ourselves to profess courageously and at all times the truths of our holy Faith, and to live as befits Catholics who are duly submissive to all the directions of the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him. We pledge ourselves to keep the commandments of God and His Church, in particular to keep holy the Lord's Day. We likewise pledge ourselves to make the consoling practices of the Christian religion, and above all, Holy Communion, an integral part of our lives, in so far as we shall be able so to do. Finally, we promise thee, O glorious Mother of God and loving Mother of men, to devote ourselves whole-heartedly to the service of thy blessed cult, in order to hasten and assure, through the sovereignty of thine Immaculate Heart, the coming of the kingdom of the Sacred Heart of thine adorable Son, in our own hearts and in those of all men, in our country and in all the world, as in heaven, so on earth. Amen.

Consecration to Mary

My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you; and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession. Amen.

now, given the above, how can any catholic stand up and deny that mary is prayed TO? that she is worshipped? these are not intercessory requests!

i've never gone to a friend and said i'd give myself, my family, my heart and soul, my home, to them if they would only agree with me in prayer before the witness of the Holy Spirit! i would never promise to serve them, ask them for devine protection, and ask them to be my salvation! i would never ask them to heal me, much less all of mankind, from spiritual sin!

i call mary blessed too. she WAS blessed. God chose her for her faithfulness (not her sinlessness) to give birth to Jesus Christ. absolutely this was an honor, and i admire the woman she was!

but praying to her, worshipping her, depending on her for salvation, that's idolatry. sorry if i've offended anyone here, but i ain't buying the defense that's being put forth, because that defense defies the tenets of catholicism itself.

[Guest LadyC]

from Catholic Q and A dot org.

So, we Catholics feel very comfortable going to her in prayer for guidance and help since she walked this road of living the Christian life before anybody else.

[Guest LCPGUY]

ok, i'm shutting up now. :x:

Lady, why shut up when you are so eloquently defending the truth?

I have not seen you attack anyone personally, rather you are just giving a passionate reply to those who wish to follow and defend false doctrine. What you are saying here is quite simply, the truth.

Good on ya Christie, keep it up

In His Love,

Bro John

[stevehut]

1- This is petitioning Mary to pray for us to God, not asking her to save our souls.

2- Since we consider Mary a friend who's already in Heaven and also the Mother of our Savior, why would we NOT address her in a more reverent tone than my buddy? .

3- Do you deny that the first Christians venerated Mary and considered her Mother of God?

4- If so, history does not support your position.

5- I'll grant that these writings are not deemed inspired

1- Doesn't answer my question. I said nothing about saving souls.

2- But didn't you say it's analogous to asking a buddy to pray for me?

3- Early church? Council of Ephesus, to be exact. I think Peter John and James were gone by then.

4- What position? So far I've only asked questions.

5- Yup. Exactly.