Mary's appearence at fatima

[stevehut]

now, given the above, how can any catholic stand up and deny that mary is prayed TO? that she is worshipped? these are not intercessory requests!

Sounds like you've been doing your homework...

[Guest LadyC]

where have they all gone? the ones who claim that catholics don't pray to mary or worship her? it's like suddenly they all disappeared....

[One Way]

where have they all gone? the ones who claim that catholics don't pray to mary or worship her? it's like suddenly they all disappeared.... 

Nah, I see GS lurking down there, just not posting... yet.

What more can be said, LadyC?

I don't say this often, but I'll say it now regarding your last few documentary postings...

WHIP-BAM!

[GoodSamaritan]

1- Doesn't answer my question.  I said nothing about saving souls.

You are confusing prayer and worship. Do we worship Mary? Of course not. Do we pray to her, you bet. James 5:16 asks us to pray for each other. Can Mary be 'an intercessor or advocate who intercedes to God on our behalf in order to obtain grace for the sinner'? The answer is yes. Revelations talks about the saints pouring out the prayers of the earthly before God. You look at this from the perspective of a 'personal relationship with Jesus'(a term that is nowhere in the Bible) and thus claim that only Jesus is to be prayed to. Mary and the saints are still members of the Church and, having made it to the promised shore, we remember them and they pray for our ultimate salvation. Did not Jesus, who was living, talk with Elijah and Moses? A great explanation can be found here:

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apol...ics/ap0151.html

2- But didn't you say it's analogous to asking a buddy to pray for me?

Or a grandmother or very holy person. A Holy person who was in Christ on earth (as i'm sure you'd say Mary was) is also in Christ in Heaven. Would you not agree that this person's prayers hold a lot more credence than just yours or mine? We need the prayers of all these people, living and living in Heaven.

Early church? Council of Ephesus, to be exact. I think Peter John and James were gone by then.

So if I can show you that the first Christians, those taught by the Apostles were venerating Mary BEFORE Ephesus, you'll conced this point? Remember, veneration was going on (documented, at least) by 110AD. The development of the doctrine continued until Ephesus where all this was formally defined. Ignatius in 110, Justin Martyr in 155, Irenaeus in 180, Tertullian in 212, Clement in 202, Origen in 244 all wrote of the special place of Mary. Justin and Ignatius were taught by Apostles themselves. Fact is, the Church was venerating Mary even while the Apostle John was still alive.

5- Yup. Exactly.

Still, do you discount the fact that they told what the early Church was teaching? They are historical and, as you know, history can prove a lot.

now, given the above, how can any catholic stand up and deny that mary is prayed TO? that she is worshipped? these are not intercessory requests!

Did Christ establish a Church on earth? Yes, Mt 16 says He did. Did he give the Church power not granted to you and I? Yes, Mt 18 says He did. What did Jesus tell us to do when we disagree about doctrine or interpretation of Scripture? In Mt 18, he told us to 'go tell the Church'. By what authority do you claim Mary to be unscriptural when Jesus says to ask the Church to know what the doctrine is? The Church has writings that pre-date the canon of Scripture which document the veneration of Mary. Do we then conveniently forget Jesus' words and take it upon ourselves to trump what the Church said and did?

Given that you are not Catholic, you will not see that the prayer to Mary for grace is made with the well known assumption that God provides the grace and Mary is the minister of grace. All of Mary's power is from God and no Catholic would tell you otherwise. Mary is given a place that no other human has been given. Again, if you want to really discuss the theology of Mary, start a new thread. We're a long way away from apparitions.

GS

[stevehut]

So if I can show you that the first Christians, those taught by the Apostles were venerating Mary BEFORE Ephesus, you'll conced this point?

OK, try me.

Rosary prayer and beads

Altar in church buildings where a bride lays her flowers

Paintings with halos

Miracle worker (John Paul gives her credit for saving his life)

Co-redeemer (which John Paul has unoficially agreed to)

Intercessor

Lifetime virginity

Local congregations named in her honor ("Our Lady of...")

etc.

I'm all ears.

[One Way]

1- Doesn't answer my question.

[GoodSamaritan]

OK, try me.

In 180, Irenaeus is calling Mary the 'New Eve'. By calling her this, he is saying that, like Eve, she was created sinless.

"In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.' But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise 'they were both naked, and were not ashamed,' inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, "instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee.' For the Lord, having been born "the First-begotten of the dead,' and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith."

Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:22(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:455

Tertullian, in 212, was calling her the same thing.

As Eve had believed the serpent, so Mary believed the angel. The delinquency which the one occasioned by believing, the other by believing effaced. But (it will be said) Eve did not at the devil's word conceive in her womb. Well, she at all events conceived; for the devil's word afterwards became as seed to her that she should conceive as an outcast, and bring forth in sorrow. Indeed she gave birth to a fratricidal devil; whilst Mary, on the contrary, bare one who was one day to secure salvation to Israel, His own brother after the flesh, and the murderer of Himself. God therefore sent down into the virgin's womb His Word, as the good Brother, who should blot out the memory of the evil brother. Hence it was necessary that Christ should come forth for the salvation of man, in that condition of flesh into which man had entered ever since his condemnation."

Tertullian,Flesh of Christ,17(A.D. 212),in ANF,III:536

Clearly, Mary was the NT type of Eve. She was already being called 'Saint Mary' as early as 360, before Marian dogma was even defined at Ephesus:

"And as the grace of the Triad is one, so also the Triad is indivisible. We can see this in regard to Saint Mary herself. The archangel Gabriel when sent to announce the coming of the Word upon her said, 'The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee', knowing that the Spirit was in the Word. Wherefore he added: 'and the Power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.'"

Athanasius,To Serapion of Thmuis,III:6(A.D. 360),in SHA,176

Epiphanius, before 431, said you cannot separate the son from the mother:

"Whoever honors the Lord also honors the holy [vessel]; who instead dishonors the holy vessel also dishonors his Master. Mary herself is that holy Virgin, that is, the holy vessel"

Epiphanius,Panarion,78:21(A.D. 377),in MFC,127

What's funny, is that I can't find a single soul who disagrees with these men! Clearly, this veneration was accepted, a given. Not even Luther dissented from these men in their veneration and elevation of Mary.

Ambrose, again before 431, explained further this veneration in his church:

"The first thing which kindles ardour in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue."

Ambrose,On Virginity,2:15(A.D. 377),in NPNF2,X:374

In fact, to deny the position of these men was to be 'cut off':

"If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is severed from the Godhead. If anyone should assert that He passed through the Virgin as through a channel, and was not at once divinely and humanly formed in her (divinely, because without the intervention of a man; humanly, because in accordance with the laws of gestation), he is in like manner godless."

Gregory of Nazianzen,To Cledonius, Epistle 101(A.D. 382),in NPNF2,VII:439

All these men wrote before Ephesus. It is clear as to what Mary's position was in the Church.

Irinaeus, in 180, says Mary is to be our advocate:

"For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:547

Doesn't get much clearer than that.

Athanasius, in 373, actually petitions Mary!

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides."

Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin,71:216(ante AD 373),in MCF,106

Gregory of Nazianzen describes how a Christian woman petitioned Mary:

"Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground."

Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 24:11(A.D. 379),in MCF,167

Rosary prayer and beads

Altar in church buildings where a bride lays her flowers

Paintings with halos

Miracle worker (John Paul gives her credit for saving his life)

Co-redeemer (which John Paul has unoficially agreed to)

Intercessor

Lifetime virginity

Local congregations named in her honor ("Our Lady of...")

etc.

Obviously you're unfamiliar with the development of doctrine. Or is it that you will accept the development of doctrine on things like the Trinity, Incarnation, and Ascension, but won't regarding Mary? Sacramentals such as the rosary do not bring grace. What they do is remind us of the piety and grace of Mary on earth and inspire us to become like her as God's creatures. They are not paths of worship of Mary but merely tools we use to remind ourselves of the perfected work of God in Mary. Sacramentals in general have been in place since the time of the apostles. Here is the place sacramentals have always played in Christianity:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13292d.htm

It's looking like our time here is coming to an end. I appreciate the questions and issues you've raised. I know there are many more. May you find the understanding you are looking for even if it's not meant to convince you. God Bless and we'll see ya around. (Not on this thread, however)

GS

[GoodSamaritan]

GS, your equating Mary with Jesus sure does tell a story.

It's not me, it's the Church from before a NT even existed. They always believed that we cannot separate the son from the mother:

"Whoever honors the Lord also honors the holy [vessel]; who instead dishonors the holy vessel also dishonors his Master. Mary herself is that holy Virgin, that is, the holy vessel"

Epiphanius,Panarion,78:21(A.D. 377),in MFC,127

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides."

Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin,71:216(ante AD 373),in MCF,106

There is lots to learn in the writings of the Church Fathers.

GS

[One Way]

It's looking like our time here is coming to an end. I appreciate the questions and issues you've raised. I know there are many more. May you find the understanding you are looking for even if it's not meant to convince you. God Bless and we'll see ya around. (Not on this thread, however) 

GS

In the Greek that literally means "exit, stage left."

[One Way]

GS, your equating Mary with Jesus sure does tell a story.

It's not me, it's the Church from before a NT even existed. They always believed that we cannot separate the son from the mother:

"Whoever honors the Lord also honors the holy [vessel]; who instead dishonors the holy vessel also dishonors his Master. Mary herself is that holy Virgin, that is, the holy vessel"

Epiphanius,Panarion,78:21(A.D. 377),in MFC,127

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides."

Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin,71:216(ante AD 373),in MCF,106

There is lots to learn in the writings of the Church Fathers.

GS

But, what does the Bible say?

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.