Mary's appearence at fatima

[GoodSamaritan]

But, what does the Bible say?

The Bible says, 'Go to the Church' to find out...

But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.

And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Note: It doesn't say, look through Scripture. What the Bible tells us is to look to the Church, not make up our own interpretation, doesn't it? When Paul calls the Church the 'pillar and foundation of the Truth', does he mean that Scripture really is the pillar and foundation?

Now, Exit Stage Left! Ciao.

[Guest LadyC]

Or a grandmother or very holy person. A Holy person who was in Christ on earth (as i'm sure you'd say Mary was) is also in Christ in Heaven. Would you not agree that this person's prayers hold a lot more credence than just yours or mine? We need the prayers of all these people, living and living in Heaven.

i would not agree. my prayers hold just as much credence with God as the prayers of any believer, living or dead. there is even more power in prayer when two or more are gathered together in agreement, but my prayers are no less important to God than anyone else.

and there is none holy aside from God himself. and actually, scripture doesn't instruct us to pray to Jesus, it instructs us to pray to the FATHER in the NAME of Jesus. there's a difference.

Jesus is still the only mediator... and for the record, the Bible calls all believers "saints"... living or dead. only the catholic church deems individuals as 'saints' after they've been dead for a minimum of five years.

edited to add:

"Whoever honors the Lord also honors the holy [vessel]; who instead dishonors the holy vessel also dishonors his Master. Mary herself is that holy Virgin, that is, the holy vessel"

Epiphanius,Panarion,78:21(A.D. 377),in MFC,127

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides."

Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin,71:216(ante AD 373),in MCF,106

and yet still, not one single scripture in the BIBLE even implies that mary is 'holy'.

besides, i posted up there evidence that mary is worshipped, that she is prayed directly to, not as an intercessor, but as a diety of sorts herself.... and those came straight from the catholic prayer book.

OneWay said (i think it was one way)

GS, your equating Mary with Jesus sure does tell a story.

well that's better than one of those websites i quoted from, in which it said mary was given power over God Himself, isn't it? :oww:

ah shucks, i said i was out of here, didn't i? i should have been, since my posts went unresponded too!

ok, i'll try to keep my mouth shut from here on out. i don't think the facts are going to change anyone's position here, at least not today. that's something only God can convince people of, if they only have ears to hear. but since they're listening for mary's voice, and not God's, it may be a long time!

Edited July 23, 2004 by LadyC

[One Way]

But, what does the Bible say?

The Bible says, 'Go to the Church' to find out...

But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.

And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Note: It doesn't say, look through Scripture. What the Bible tells us is to look to the Church, not make up our own interpretation, doesn't it? When Paul calls the Church the 'pillar and foundation of the Truth', does he mean that Scripture really is the pillar and foundation?

Now, Exit Stage Left! Ciao.

That passage is about reconciliation between believers and church discipline. Nowhere does it say "let other people make up your mind for you regarding doctrinal matters."

Rather, we have this:

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If you're esteeming the commandments of men higher than the Word of God then I think you are in a dangerous place.

[Guest LCPGUY]

In 180, Irenaeus is calling Mary the 'New Eve'. By calling her this, he is saying that, like Eve, she was created sinless.

Dear Bro GS, if she were sinless then why did she admit she needed a Saviour? Luke 1:47.

And I beg to differ with you implying that the doctrine of the Trinity was developed later on. It is clearly defined in the Holy Scriptures whereas the sinlessness or holiness of Mary is NOT!

In His Love,

Bro John

[stevehut]

Obviously you're unfamiliar with the development of doctrine. Or is it that you will accept the development of doctrine on things like the Trinity, Incarnation, and Ascension, but won't regarding Mary? Sacramentals such as the rosary do not bring grace.

Silly me, I thought you were going to make your case from the Scriptures... wasn't that your original premise?

[stevehut]

I beg to differ with you implying that the doctrine of the Trinity was developed later on. It is clearly defined in the Holy Scriptures whereas the sinlessness or holiness of Mary is NOT!

Yup.

[ServingHim]

excellent information, GoodSamaritan, and thank you for posting it all. Denying church history would be denying how the church developed from 33 A.D. until now. Thank you again for sharing those excellent references.

[stevehut]

I'm still waiting to hear from you, Good Sam.

You speak of the "development" of church doctrine. But didn't you already tell me that these practices had their origin in the earliest antiquity? If these things are prescribed in the Scriptures, what is there to "develop"?

[Guest Called]

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he (Jesus) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Why do you need Mary?

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Where is there room for Mary here?

Mariology is completely unbiblical and is what I call idolatry in the way I see it practiced. I can't tell you how many vehicles I drive by where they have a picture of Mary on it. I don't see these people put pictures of their friends on the back of their windshield. So, I don't accept the argument of "just like you would treat your friend."

Sorry to come out so strongly, but in light of the verses above I think Jesus is competing with Mary for your attention in the RCC.

Regarding that "prayer."

"Hail Mary Full of Grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art though among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.'

Hail Mary sure sounds like worship to me.

Lastly, I always find it interesting how this "prayer" is uttered over and over and over. You know, "say 20 hail Mary's, etc."

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Saying "hail Mary" over and over sure sounds like "vain repetitions" and "much speaking." Why isn't 1 "hail Mary" enough? Why do you need 10 or 20? And, like I stated earlier, why do you need Mary at all when you have Jesus?

Help me understand this one.

Where in the Bible are we exhorted to appeal to Mary for anything?

Amen!

[Guest Called]

Or a grandmother or very holy person. A Holy person who was in Christ on earth (as i'm sure you'd say Mary was) is also in Christ in Heaven. Would you not agree that this person's prayers hold a lot more credence than just yours or mine? We need the prayers of all these people, living and living in Heaven.

God is no respector of persons. That includes Mary or John the Baptist or whoever else you want to name. God loves the Homeless crack addict down the street just as much as he loved Mary.