Mary's appearence at fatima

[irishcowboy]

why are we suppose to ask Mary for things?????

what did Jesus teach us to do????

He taught us to go straight to the source, straight to God the Father for our request.....

why is there a human being placed in the middle of the request???

mary has no devine power that we do not have....

Mary is dead.... she is no longer attached to this earth...

Mary has seen enough pain and suffering thru her mortal life that i do not honestly believe that God would be such that he would make her watch every one else suffer and turn against her son thru out all the days.....

Mary has no place in the chain of command.....

We are taught and told thru the scriptures, thru the teachings of Christ Jesus, to pray to the Father...... Jesus did not say pray thru his mom, or even thru Him... but pray to God the Father......

praying to some one else.... even to interceed..... why???? dont make sense...

first.... if I were to give you a concern to pray about, you would not know all the facts, and thus you would be apt to make many errors in praying for me....

if I take my request to Mary, it is the same thing, Mary is not all knowing..... God the Father is ALL KNOWING..... thus I take my request directly to God the Father..... standing on the Glorious Name of Jesus, His Son..... this way, the needs i have are met directly.... with out hesitation.....

we are also told that if we have problems, we are to pray for ourselves...... right??

if you disagree, then you show me in scripture, for I can show you where we are suppose to pray for our selves if we have needs..... and if we are sick, then we are to call on the elders of the church, sorry, Mary is not one of the elders. the Elders then would annoint the one that is ill and they would then pray for them...

Mary is not mentioned in any of these instructions......

it dont say ask mary to pray for you....... is says pray.....

who do we pray to???? The Holy Word does not say pray to mary or even have mary pray for you.... the Holy Word says Pray to the Father.... bring your petition to the Lord God..... not to mary, or to paul or to peter or to .............. only to GOD..

sorry, we are not even to pray to my name sake, Michael, or to Christopher..... we are to bring our petitions to God and God only.... by going else where, we are placing some one else above God, saying we do not feel that it is worthy of Gods hand.....

sorry..... God is the only All knowing, All present, All knowledgable, All wisdom, all everything.... God is not so small that He can not handle all my request and yours too.... nor is He so big that he dont want to know how your day went... what you are feeling or how bad you felt you did on a test or at work.... God wants to see that finger painting you did, or know about the bubble gum that is in your hair...

God wants to be your Father too.... but if we will not allow God to be our Father and take everything to Him, then He can not handle it.... He already knows you are hurting, He is just waiting for you to bring the pain to Him for Him to remove...

Mary can not fix a broken heart.....

like the story goes.....

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall, Humpty Dumpty had a great fall,

all the Kings men, and all the Kings horses, could not put Humpty together again....

well, the story is incomplete...... the story talked about the Kings men and horses, but never says anything about the King..... Mary is just one of the Kings men, as are you and me...... we can not do what God can do..... Only God can mend a broken heart, but He has to have all the pieces, He can not do it if you give some of the pieces to Mary or Joseph or Ruth or John, or Peter or Paul or...........

God is my Lord, Mary is as a sister........

v.r.

mike ( former catholic )

[apothanein kerdos]

Anyone who tries to prove that Catholics worship Mary is simply going to grasp at straws. While Catholic documents exault Mary to an extremely high spot, and while some Catholics do worship Mary, it is by no means a declaration by the Papal authority. At the same time Catholics do not pray to Mary nor to the Saints. They simply ask for intercessory prayer.

This does not mean I agree with Catholics when they exault Mary to a high spot nor when they ask for intercession. In fact, I believe it goes against scripture. Yet, this topic already seems long enough, and that there is enough bad blood brewing, thus I will not get into it. Any debate on Catholic doctrine inevitably comes down to Tradition vs. Scripture, and that is a tiring arguement that almost always ends up going in circles.

[Guest Called]

Among all us disciples of Christ, members of the Church, Mary holds a preeminent place because she was the first disciple and holiest of us all, most like her Son. She is the Mother of our Head, and so spiritually she is the Mother of all the members of Christ. She is our model in her splendid faith, total obedience, and utter sinlessness and purity. Her vocation is to pray for us, to bring us to her Son, and to bring Him to life, growth, and perfection in each one of us. She is the Universal Intercessor and the Universal Cooperator with Christ, for the REDEMPTION of His members, her children. Hence we call her Co-redeemer par excellence, remembering that we are all mutually Co-redeemers. She is Mediatrix to us all, as we are all mutually mediators. She is Christ's Helper in our salvation, as we are all mutually His helpers. All comes from Christ. We are sharers, with Mary the greatest sharer of all. It is well to pause here, and to invite you to meditation, only repeating that Mary is a creature, a woman, redeemed by Christ. But she is so exceptional by reason of her Motherhood of Christ and her perfect fullness of grace, that she rightly holds the first place in every way among all Christ's disciples.

THIS IS COMPLETE AND UTTER BLASPHEMY! I JUST CAN'T BELIEVE IT!

THIS DOCTRINE IS FROM THE PITS OF HELL! I AM NOT SAYING THAT IN THE FLESH. THE HOLY SPIRIT IN ME IS CRYING THIS OUT! I PRAY THAT ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THIS TRASH WILL SEE THE LIGHT, LEST THEY BE HELD IN JUDGEMENT.

[apothanein kerdos]

Called, I don't believe you help your case any by acting in such a manner. While the Catholic doctrine on Mary is wrong and could be considered blasphemous, it is not actually a salvation issue. Thus I have a hard time believing a Catholic could be condemned for it.

[Ovedya]

While I agree with you, Super Jew, I think it boils own to a differentiating definition of terms. Someone who is exalted to a high position is invariably worshipped in one way or another. Catholic doctrine skirts this issue and plays it down to the extent that they teach that one can be exalted without being worshipped. Well, in fact, exaltation is really a kind of worship.

But the real problem in my estimation is the fact that, where Cathlolic clergy and even some laity may be able to draw a distiction between what is exaltation without worship and what is true worship, the predominant masses simply cannot. Therefore they worship Mary in just the same way that they worship Christ.

In some countries Catholic missionaries attempted to replace the indigenous pagan religions and failed because the pagan influence was just too strong. The indigenous peoples simply incorporated the Catholic saints and Mary with their pagan beliefs and started worshiping them. A perfect example of this in in Haiti, where Santeri mixes Mary with pagan godess worship. The RCC officially has done little to nothing to deter its unedicated laity from worshipping Mary.

[apothanein kerdos]

While I agree with you, Super Jew, I think it boils own to a differentiating definition of terms. Someone who is exalted to a high position is invariably worshipped in one way or another. Catholic doctrine skirts this issue and plays it down to the extent that they teach that one can be exalted without being worshipped. Well, in fact, exaltation is really a kind of worship.

I think this is a point we'll have to agree to disagree on. I can conceed that Catholics in some form do worship Mary, yet if we use such a broad brushed term, Baptist, Methodist, anyone for that matter, could be accused of the same thing.

But the real problem in my estimation is the fact that, where Cathlolic clergy and even some laity may be able to draw a distiction between what is exaltation without worship and what is true worship, the predominant masses simply cannot. Therefore they worship Mary in just the same way that they worship Christ.

Now this I wholeheartedly agree in. While the Pope has not decreed they should worship Mary, he hasn't exactly told them not to.

In some countries Catholic missionaries attempted to replace the indigenous pagan religions and failed because the pagan influence was just too strong. The indigenous peoples simply incorporated the Catholic saints and Mary with their pagan beliefs and started worshiping them. A perfect example of this in in Haiti, where Santeri mixes Mary with pagan godess worship. The RCC officially has done little to nothing to deter its unedicated laity from worshipping Mary.

Oh exactly. Many of the traditions within the Roman Catholic church have been carried over from Babylonian temples within Rome during Constantine's conversion. We know there was a split when Constantine converted. Many who would be considered "evangelicals" were killed while the Catholic church was allowed to survive. So I agree that much of the Catholic doctrine is a mix of Christianity with other religions.

[Guest Called]

Called, I don't believe you help your case any by acting in such a manner. While the Catholic doctrine on Mary is wrong and could be considered blasphemous, it is not actually a salvation issue. Thus I have a hard time believing a Catholic could be condemned for i

I am not trying to change peoples minds. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. So I don't have a "case". However, I don't want some young Christian coming in and reading that garbage, straight from hell. I believe a Catholic can be condemned for it.

[Ovedya]

I think this is a point we'll have to agree to disagree on. I can conceed that Catholics in some form do worship Mary, yet if we use such a broad brushed term, Baptist, Methodist, anyone for that matter, could be accused of the same thing.

Maybe we can discuss this in a little more depth in your post on worship.

[apothanein kerdos]

I think this is a point we'll have to agree to disagree on. I can conceed that Catholics in some form do worship Mary, yet if we use such a broad brushed term, Baptist, Methodist, anyone for that matter, could be accused of the same thing.

Maybe we can discuss this in a little more depth in your post on worship.

lol. Well, that's in refrence to worshiping God.

[stevehut]

While the Pope has not decreed they should worship Mary, he hasn't exactly told them not to.

Actually John Paul has been a very vocal advocate for her cause. He even credited her with saving his life when he was shot.