Mary's appearence at fatima

[Ovedya]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that the purpose of venerating images is to venerate the persons that those images represent.

Doesn't it say in Exodus that you shouldn't bow down to an image? Every time I attend a Catholic church, I see people bowing down to the statues and images.

Does the Catechism supersede the Torah?

Funny you should ask that, because from roughly the 3rd century to Vatican II (I think) the RC held the doctrine of replacement. Therefore, certainly the Catechism superceded the Torah!

[stevehut]

Funny you should ask that, because from roughly the 3rd century to Vatican II (I think) the RC held the doctrine of replacement.  Therefore, certainly the Catechism superceded the Torah!

I guess my question was, do Catholics consciously think of it that way, in the belief that it's the proper thing to do?

[ServingHim]

Doesn't it say in Exodus that you shouldn't bow down to an image?  Every time I attend a Catholic church, I see people bowing down to the statues and images. 

Does the Catechism supersede the Torah? 

21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. Heb 11:21

Exodus 20:4-5 is what you were looking for steve. To say that Catholics "worship statues" is, IMHO, ludicrous, and this is why I believe that. You have forgotten about the numerous other passages where the Lord commands the carving of statues:

"And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two carved statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18-20).

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chron 28:18-19). Note that all this was directed according to divinely inspired writing.

Ezekiel 41:15 describes graven images in the Temple: "on the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

During a plague of serpents he sent to punish the wicked Israelites, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live." (Num. 21:8-9). The fact that one had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent in order to be healed reveals that the statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it is helps to remember one's mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Christians (non-Catholic) themselves have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for purposes of teaching children, especially those who haven't learned to read. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much like other churches that have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" which they accuse Catholics of practicing. But the fact is, there's no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images, but he doesn't ban the making of images in general. If he had, movies, videos, photographs, manger scenes, paintings, drawings, and all sorts of things would be banned, since they too are images.

And as you have noted regarding this scripture in Deuteronomy 5:9 where God said concerning statues, "You shall not bow down to them.", you have said we must be worshipping 'graven images' since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints. I believe that you, and many others, are confusing the legitimate 'usefulness as a tool' of a sacred image (such as the crucifix, statue of a saint, et al) with the sin of idolatry. The fact is, Deuteronomy 5:9 doesn't help this stance at all.

Remember that although bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. For example, in Japan it is the custom for people to show respect and politeness by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of shaking hands in the West). Obviously there is no "worship" going on here. The Catholic who kneels in front of a statue when praying IS NOT worshipping or even praying TO the statue anymore than when YOU kneel in prayer with a Bible in your hands, you I KNOW are not worshipping your Bible NOR are you praying TO the Bible.

When people had to look to the bronze serpent to be healed in the OT, they were not worshipping it, as shown by the fact that, years later when they did worship it, and even gave it a name ("Nehushtan") as a snake-god, the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

Therefore, God doesn't prohibit the making of statues or images of various creatures (e.g. angels, serpents, oxen, flowers, lions, etc.) for religious purposes (1 Kings 6:29-32; 8:6-67; 2 Chr. 3:7-14).

Many Christians TOO use all sorts of religious images: Pictures of Jesus and other biblical personages appear on a myriad of Bibles, biblical picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, CDs, and manger scenes, the list goes on and on! Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus symbol--the "fish" emblem and stuck on every car, notebook, window, etc..

Common sense tells us that since God has revealed himself in various images, most especially in the Incarnate Jesus Christ, we realize that it's not wrong for us to make use of images of these forms to strengthen and deepen our knowledge and love of God. Isn't that what ALL Christians DO. In fact, I have a fish symbol on the back of my car, and every time I get in my car, it reminds me of my precious Lord & Savior, Jesus Christ. I glance at it and think of Him. That's exactly the purpose that Catholic statues of Jesus and the saints have: They are images that represent persons we cannot see with our physical eyes.

Since the days of the Apostles, the Catholic Church has clearly and consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue. Here some examples:

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the veneration of sacred images and icons, said, "[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church, having no blemish or wrinkle, promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, 'I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.'

"This promise, however, he made not only to them but also to us, who thanks to them have come to believe in his name. To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols. . . . Certainly [this respect] is not the full adoration in accordance with our faith, which is properly paid only to the divine nature, but it resembles that given to the figure of the honored and life-giving cross, and also to the holy books of the gospels and to other sacred . . . objects."

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (p. 374).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1993) explains that "Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of 'idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see. 'These empty idols make their worshippers empty:' 'Those who make them are like them; so are all those trust in them' [Ps. 115:4-5, 8]. God, however, is the 'living God' [c.f. Joshua 3:10, Psalm 42:3.] who gives life and intervenes in history."

"Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. man commits idolatry whenever he honor and reveres a creature in the place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. . . . Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.

"Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration.

"Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who 'transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God'" (CCC 2112-2114, citing Origen, Contra Celsum 2:40).

So I hope this helps to clarify what certain persons are doing when they perhaps bow in front of a 'crucifix of our Lord' or 'the Blessed Mother' ... by no means are they transferring worship TO the STATUE; only being reminded of who that statues represents, and our Lord is most certainly worthy of a 'bow' of respect and gratefulness, and so is His Mother... :il:

[irishcowboy]

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" which they accuse Catholics of practicing. But the fact is, there's no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images, but he doesn't ban the making of images in general. If he had, movies, videos, photographs, manger scenes, paintings, drawings, and all sorts of things would be banned, since they too are images.

Actually, the Lord has told us, not to have any graven images before Him...

we are not to have them, nor make them.....

as for the items in the temple. those were directed to be made by God.....

the statues of the "saints and others" that we see, were not.....

mike

[ServingHim]

That's what I was talking about with respect to the blurring of the distiction between reverence and worship.

so are you saying that 'veneration' is the same thing as 'worship'.

MSN ENcarta dictionary says re:veneration ...

ven

[ServingHim]

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" which they accuse Catholics of practicing. But the fact is, there's no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images, but he doesn't ban the making of images in general. If he had, movies, videos, photographs, manger scenes, paintings, drawings, and all sorts of things would be banned, since they too are images.

Actually, the Lord has told us, not to have any graven images before Him...

we are not to have them, nor make them.....

as for the items in the temple. those were directed to be made by God.....

the statues of the "saints and others" that we see, were not.....

mike

you are right...WORSHIP of images is forbidden, but using them is NOT forbidden...can't say I've ever met anyone who WORSHIPs an 'object'. You would have to think that that object has some sort of 'deity'. 'The Passion of the Christ' was 'venerated' by MANY ... but one could say that some were doing PURE IDOLATRY if making a rash judgment... I can't tell you HOW many people I saw 'revering' that film and lives being changed...is this a 'graven' image? If not, how is THIS different than an image of Christ used in a church, or in a home?

Edited July 29, 2004 by ServingHim

[Guest LadyC]

i said i was bowing out, didn't i.

the difference between what we're discussing and the Pasion of the Christ is this. people's lives are changed because they were given a brutally detailed account of what Christ went through to save them from eternal death. the focus was entirely on the story of Christ's last hours.

[ServingHim]

i said i was bowing out, didn't i.

the difference between what we're discussing and the Pasion of the Christ is this. people's lives are changed because they were given a brutally detailed account of what Christ went through to save them from eternal death. the focus was entirely on the story of Christ's last hours.

and the focus on the 'image' of a crucifix is exactly the same thing...what Christ DID for ALL of humanity...it's very humbling to just sit and gaze upon an acutal artists rendition of a crucifix, or the 'stations of the cross' (the very thing that Mel Gibson adapted his movie from). It details the last hours of our Lord's life, death and resurrection!

[stevehut]

Serving Him,

My question was not about worshipping images. I was asking about the practice of bowing down in front of them.

[Orr v'emet]

Mary is exalted for Catholics. It's almost no different than a Baptist going to their pastor whom they love and respect and asking them to pray for them, and also defending that pastor no matter what.

I'm not sure how you see this connection but um...my pastor is alive. Mary is dead. What good is she going to do me?