Mary's appearence at fatima

[apothanein kerdos]

God could use them. However He didn't.

you don't know that for sure...

Actually, I know for a fact that it's not mentioned in the New Testament.

[ServingHim]

God could use them. However He didn't.

you don't know that for sure...

Actually, I know for a fact that it's not mentioned in the New Testament.

and we're back to the basic difference that you see scripture as your sole authority (which is unbiblical), and I look to the Church, Sacred Scripture & Sacred Tradition ... so we're at a 'stalemate'. God bless... :il:

[apothanein kerdos]

God could use them. However He didn't.

you don't know that for sure...

Actually, I know for a fact that it's not mentioned in the New Testament.

and we're back to the basic difference that you see scripture as your sole authority (which is unbiblical), and I look to the Church, Sacred Scripture & Sacred Tradition ... so we're at a 'stalemate'. God bless... :il:

We're only at a stalemate because you avoid the issues I also do not enjoy getting into lengthy debates on this subject because it requires much posting and much reading.

[ServingHim]

We're only at a stalemate because you avoid the issues I also do not enjoy getting into lengthy debates on this subject because it requires much posting and much reading.

I'm not sure what 'issue' you say I avoid ... I feel I've been addressing the issues for many many days now. But I agree with you ... these 'lengthy' debates are too much and I'm perfectly at peace in what I believe...I'm sure you are as well. I don't HAVE to be right...and if you do, then I pray you find peace while trying to make everyone see it your way. In the meantime, I DO believe in the apparitions of our Blessed Mother...PERIOD! :il:

[Orr v'emet]

God could use them. However He didn't.

you don't know that for sure...

Actually, I know for a fact that it's not mentioned in the New Testament.

and we're back to the basic difference that you see scripture as your sole authority (which is unbiblical), and I look to the Church, Sacred Scripture & Sacred Tradition ... so we're at a 'stalemate'. God bless... :il:

You say that the christian's belief that the bible is the ultimate authority is unbiblical? Care to tell me how that is so? (If it's somewhere in these 19 pages I apologize...I didn't want to go back and read it all)

[ServingHim]

READ HERE or READ HERE or READ HERE or READ HERE or READ HERE for starters....I hope this helps... :il:

[Orr v'emet]

READ HERE or READ HERE or READ HERE or READ HERE or READ HERE for starters....I hope this helps... :il:

Not really....It's all appears to be catholic doctrine, which frankly I believe is wrong. As far as the whole teaching idea...where did the lessons originate from and where are they recorded...I would venture to guess it's in the Bible. So catholics view the bible as what exactly? It is the only book that is God-breathed that I know of. I wouldn't trust any other doctrice or book with my walk with Christ as I do the bible and it blows my mind that others do. People's tradition and teaching can be sincerely wrong.

[irishcowboy]

I believe that we were told that "tradition" is ok, but not to focus on "tradition"

if we seek signs and wonders, then we can be deceived. we are to seek the God, not these signs......

When Christ died on the cross, we no longer had to go to a place to find the Spirit of God, for it was released for all to partake. we do not have to chase after this sign or that wonder. we can have Christ with us always.... we can have the Spirit of God with us at all times, just for our asking, but not if we are going to waste our time chasing after some sign, or trying to see what wonder is taking place over here or there, or even looking at statues that weep or bleed or even appear to move. we are not to seek after these, we are to seek after the Glory of God, not man....

how can something man has sanctified bring us closer to God?

how can a pile of bones under an alter be more holy then the power of the Spirit of God? how can "man" do anything to bring us closer to God?

man can not....... but, if we seek God..... earnestly seek God, God Himself will bring us closer to Him..... God has empowered all His believers and Followers with the Power of His Spirit, all we have to do is step forth.

why is it man wants to see signs?

why is it man wants something that is magical? isn't that what is happening with the remnant that is under or in the alters that is used to sanctify the "bread and wine"? magic?

God wants us to fellowship with Him..... not with dead people.....

God wants us to fellowship with our brothers and sisters that are still in this world, not ones that have already left this world, for they can not hear us, nor can they see us.......

those that have gone on ahead of us are not allowed to return to this earth, not yet anyways.... even Christ brought this up, when the Rich man wanted the begger to return to his brothers house and warn them.......

satan is the greatest deceiver, he has pulled the blinders over many eyes.....he has hoodwinked many a soul, he has fooled way to many people into thinking that when he brings forth a sign, that it is of God..... but it is not.....

if a person is looking for signs, then they need to stay burried in the Word of God, and seek the filling of the Spirit of God, seek the power that Christ, Himself promised us all.

as for the Keys to Heaven, all believers have been given the keys.........

those seeking signs are those that will still be seeking them when the rapture comes and goes, and they will, again, fall victim to the deceipt of satan, and will be waiting for signs after church has been raptured..... of those left, there will be many of the "church goers" ( catholic, and protestant ) that will turn away from God calling Him a liar, for they will believe that all their good works should have saved them from the tribulation, they will also be the ones that will turn traitor against the others believers that were left behind...... there will be some of the "church goers" that are left that will see that they are at fault and will turn, and be the ones that rally for God and will be those that will remain true through-out the entire tribulation period, many will loose their lives for the Lord, for their beliefs....

this is not a time to be chasing here and there looking for the Christ...... He is not over there....... nor is he over here..... there will be some saying that is him....

if you want Christ in your life, then when he is knocking, open the door and invite Him in and give him full reign of the house, not just one room...... dont be a one day a week believer.... dont be a once a week Christian...... dont be a one day aweek follower...... we are to follow Christ 24/7/52/for life ........

if the trumpet sounded now, would you be ready??? would you be heading up in the sky? or would you be looking around trying to figure out where everyone else went????

you do not have time to think about this much less say that I will do it tomorrow...

you never know when there might be a sniper attack, a terrorist attack a car wreck or a stray bullet from a policemans gun or even that of the robber shooting at the policeman..... you have no idea how many minutes you have left in your life, you have no time to sit back and wait...... Christ is the answer, not mary, not paul, not peter, not john...... Christ Jesus........ if you wish to try and decieve others, then you will have to answer to the Lord about the truth.... but Christ is the only way.......

we are to pray directly to God thru the name of Jesus, not anyone else... .we are not to pray to anyone else, for that is saying they can handle it better then God can....

if you want some one to pray with you, great..... if you want strength in numbers, that is good, but do not pray to any other then God......

we are told if we have problems, to pray......

we are told if we are sick then to call the elders of the church and have them pray

"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. and the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. " ( James 5, 14-15 )

that did not say to pray in the name of Mary, nor did it say to pray to mary....

praying to mary is unscriptural, praying thru mary is unscriptural, standing on tradition over the Gosple is unscriptural, the Lord gave us that word..... whos word will you stand on? that of the Lord? or man?

there were only two humans that did not die a physical death...... Enoch and Elijah.... there is nothing in the Word that says Mary did not die a physical death, infact, i do not recall anything of her being mentioned after Christ Assended....

again, satan is really good at being a deceiver, did it to many people, even those that had a very personal relationship with God, ones that knew God the best, Adam and Eve.....

well, you wil do what you want, nothing I can say will change your mind, only allowing the Spirit of the Lord to open your eyes will change that....

v.r.

mike

[Orr v'emet]

I believe that we were told that "tradition" is ok, but not to focus on "tradition"

if we seek signs and wonders, then we can be deceived. we are to seek the God, not these signs......

When Christ died on the cross, we no longer had to go to a place to find the Spirit of God, for it was released for all to partake. we do not have to chase after this sign or that wonder. we can have Christ with us always.... we can have the Spirit of God with us at all times, just for our asking, but not if we are going to waste our time chasing after some sign, or trying to see what wonder is taking place over here or there, or even looking at statues that weep or bleed or even appear to move. we are not to seek after these, we are to seek after the Glory of God, not man....

how can something man has sanctified bring us closer to God?

how can a pile of bones under an alter be more holy then the power of the Spirit of God? how can "man" do anything to bring us closer to God?

man can not....... but, if we seek God..... earnestly seek God, God Himself will bring us closer to Him..... God has empowered all His believers and Followers with the Power of His Spirit, all we have to do is step forth.

why is it man wants to see signs?

why is it man wants something that is magical? isn't that what is happening with the remnant that is under or in the alters that is used to sanctify the "bread and wine"? magic?

God wants us to fellowship with Him..... not with dead people.....

God wants us to fellowship with our brothers and sisters that are still in this world, not ones that have already left this world, for they can not hear us, nor can they see us.......

those that have gone on ahead of us are not allowed to return to this earth, not yet anyways.... even Christ brought this up, when the Rich man wanted the begger to return to his brothers house and warn them.......

satan is the greatest deceiver, he has pulled the blinders over many eyes.....he has hoodwinked many a soul, he has fooled way to many people into thinking that when he brings forth a sign, that it is of God..... but it is not.....

if a person is looking for signs, then they need to stay burried in the Word of God, and seek the filling of the Spirit of God, seek the power that Christ, Himself promised us all.

as for the Keys to Heaven, all believers have been given the keys.........

those seeking signs are those that will still be seeking them when the rapture comes and goes, and they will, again, fall victim to the deceipt of satan, and will be waiting for signs after church has been raptured..... of those left, there will be many of the "church goers" ( catholic, and protestant ) that will turn away from God calling Him a liar, for they will believe that all their good works should have saved them from the tribulation, they will also be the ones that will turn traitor against the others believers that were left behind...... there will be some of the "church goers" that are left that will see that they are at fault and will turn, and be the ones that rally for God and will be those that will remain true through-out the entire tribulation period, many will loose their lives for the Lord, for their beliefs....

this is not a time to be chasing here and there looking for the Christ...... He is not over there....... nor is he over here..... there will be some saying that is him....

if you want Christ in your life, then when he is knocking, open the door and invite Him in and give him full reign of the house, not just one room...... dont be a one day a week believer.... dont be a once a week Christian...... dont be a one day aweek follower...... we are to follow Christ 24/7/52/for life ........

if the trumpet sounded now, would you be ready??? would you be heading up in the sky? or would you be looking around trying to figure out where everyone else went????

you do not have time to think about this much less say that I will do it tomorrow...

you never know when there might be a sniper attack, a terrorist attack a car wreck or a stray bullet from a policemans gun or even that of the robber shooting at the policeman..... you have no idea how many minutes you have left in your life, you have no time to sit back and wait...... Christ is the answer, not mary, not paul, not peter, not john...... Christ Jesus........ if you wish to try and decieve others, then you will have to answer to the Lord about the truth.... but Christ is the only way.......

we are to pray directly to God thru the name of Jesus, not anyone else... .we are not to pray to anyone else, for that is saying they can handle it better then God can....

if you want some one to pray with you, great..... if you want strength in numbers, that is good, but do not pray to any other then God......

we are told if we have problems, to pray......

we are told if we are sick then to call the elders of the church and have them pray

"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. and the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. " ( James 5, 14-15 )

that did not say to pray in the name of Mary, nor did it say to pray to mary....

praying to mary is unscriptural, praying thru mary is unscriptural, standing on tradition over the Gosple is unscriptural, the Lord gave us that word..... whos word will you stand on? that of the Lord? or man?

v.r.

mike

Yes! Thank you!

[Guest charlie]

Mike, I was reading your post and thought you were making good points till I got to this part:

those seeking signs are those that will still be seeking them when the rapture comes and goes, and they will, again, fall victim to the deceipt of satan, and will be waiting for signs after church has been raptured..... of those left, there will be

The pre-trib rapture is one of those "signs" that people are seeking. I think the theory itself is one of those suble deceptions of satan. Catholic or protestant, a lot of people are looking for signs. People always have and Jesus Himself spoke of a wicked generation seeking a "sign".

Although I believe God can use anyone, including Mary, for any purpose He chooses, we should not "seek out these things". When angels appeared to people in the Bible they were terrified. I would be too, I don't want to see an angel or the Blessed Virgin, but if God wanted me to see either, I'd see them.

I think if people find themselves in this situation they should immediately pray for discernment and ask God to remove "whoever they are seeing" if that saint/angel was not sent by God.

I try to be very careful about what I say about these apparations. IF some of them are sent by God, I do not want to offend Him and I'm also reminded of the sin of blashpheming the Holy Spirit. I don't know if this falls into that category but I don't want to risk it.

Even though I disagree with some of the opinions you expressed, I did agree with a lot of what you said. I thought you made a lot of sense, except for the rapture thing, about why you think what you think.