Mary's appearence at fatima

[stevehut]

I don't think this stuff is off-topic at all. It all has to do with why people want so badly to have these visions...

[One Way]

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This passage is about the coming world leader, commonly referred to as "the Antichrist," but I thought it was relevant.

Not everything is what it appears.

[stevehut]

Matthew 1:24-25

When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

[ServingHim]

my apologies for coming across high and mighty. i do not think you're discardable or unworthy at all, and never meant to imply that.

apology accepted, but your words did speak very clearly of what you meant..after all, what comes out of the mouth is in the heart... Perhaps you should be careful how you speak to others...(Prov 13:3; James 1:26).

the conversation, however, is discardable as far as i'm concerned. as i said, it's been covered countless times on these boards and it's as simple as running a search to find the conversations and read through them.

are you this forum moderator, and if you are, then so be it. The conversation is over. However, if you are not, I don't think that you have ALL knowledge about this subject that I'd like to discuss. If you recall, LadyC, I have only been on THIS forum for 2 days, so it's a little bit presumptuous to think that I've read ALL that you've perhaps read/posted on this subject. Excuse me for irritating you in asking a question, and posting MY findings. Are they 'UNWORTHY' since they DIFFER from what YOU PERSONALLY believe??? Wonder if Jesus got so irritated with those who asked Him a question MORE than once about something. Hmmmm, don't think so. I pray you can be more PATIENT with those who differ from what YOU believe. Unless of course, YOU have ALL truth (which I can already know for sure that you don't based on how you respond).

you'll find that i've engaged in these conversations, as have many others here, and the information provided is biblically sound.

ok...so then you're not willing to discuss this with a NEW person on this board. And biblcally sound according to who? YOU? You're willling to schluff off people NOW who want to discuss an issue that may have been discuss a year ago with you? Do you NOT desire to converse at all about ANYTHING that has been discussed thus far. Amazing. If I recall, Jesus probably went OVER AND OVER again with His Apostles and disciples things that were 'difficult'. Don't you think? And secondly, NOT ALL that He did was WRITTEN in the Bible, so you can't rely SOLEY on the BIBLE for EVERYTHING, and IF you can, tell me WHY? (oh yea, that's probably another whole thread that you're gonna tell me to just do a 'search').

I can tell that SOME people on this forum have more than 4000 posts. Is it my understanding that you think that NEWCOMERS should just read for themselves trying to discipher through ALL this material looking for what they desire. NO THANKS. This is the MOST unwelcoming board of 'Christians' (which is questionable by just your uncharitable presence here - I'm sure there are others who might desire to welcome me and talk to me) I've ever visited. IF YOU represent what a Christian is all about, then you're not giving an inviting example to a non-believer of what a Christian has (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control). I see none of those in your FIRST encounter with ME, a newcomer on this board. Thank GOD I am a deep, devout believer with a history that you'll probably never get to hear...so you don't rock my world in the least.

as for why i believe you aren't interested in shaking the belief you have that she was a perpetual virgin, your own defense of your belief that you've made in  posts in this thread made that quite evident.

LadyC, I BELIEVE that SHE WAS a perpetual Virgin, and according to historical Tradition AND even some DEVOUT believers (such as Martin Luther whom LED the entire PROTESTANT reform) I believe that there IS evidence that SHE MAY HAVE. As for my OPINION of whether she was or not makes no difference. TRUTH does NOT DEPEND on OPINION. Why should I SHAKE MY BELIEF? That is again very presumptuous and PRIDEFUL that anyone who believes something DIFFERENT than you AUTOMATICALLY has to change THEIR beliefs. I feel sorry for you. I was wondering anyway WHY you are so afraid of this POSSIBILITY? Do you think that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE that she COULD HAVE BEEN? It must threaten something about your or your beliefs? Ignorance of Scripture is Ignorance of Christ, I've heard it said by a great historical figure, I think Augustine. Do you EVER read HISTORY? or do you rely on 21st century ONLY teachings of our Lord? I pray not. Even the Israelites knew their God by the HISTORY of their people!

As far as I'm concerned, I don't need to discuss this with anyone who is closed minded and judgemental....you are NOT the person I'd like to discuss with, so perhaps it would be better if I DO ask questions on this forum, you should REFRAIN from answering me.

[ServingHim]

I don't think this stuff is off-topic at all.  It all has to do with why people want so badly to have these visions... 

thank you steve, so shall we continue, even though LadyC opposes anything that might differ from her opinion?

[ServingHim]

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This passage is about the coming world leader, commonly referred to as "the Antichrist," but I thought it was relevant.

Not everything is what it appears.

You are right...not EVERYTHING is what it appears. Remember, as Christians, we live by FAITH and NOT by SIGHT.

Do you know how Mexico became a Christian country? Missionaries who first came to Mexico with the conquistadors had little success in the beginning. After nearly a generation, only a few hundred Native Mexicans had converted to the Christian faith. Whether they simply did not understand what the missionaries had to offer or whether they resented these people who made them slaves, Christianity was not popular among the native people.

Then in 1531 miracles began to happen. Jesus' own mother appeared to humble Juan Diego. (Ever heard of the city SAN DIEGO? the city named after this humble man?) Juan Diego was born in 1474 in the calpulli or ward of Tlayacac in Cuauhtitlan, which was established in 1168 by Nahua tribesmen and conquered by the Aztec lord Axayacatl in 1467; and was located 20 kilometers (14 miles) north of Tenochtitlan (Mexico City).

On December 9, 1531, a native Mexican named Juan Diego rose before dawn to walk fifteen miles to church in what is now Mexico City. Juan lived a simple life as a weaver, farmer, and laborer. That morning, as Juan passed Tepeyac Hill, he heard music and saw a glowing cloud encircled by a rainbow. A woman's voice called him to the top of the hill. There he saw a beautiful young woman dressed like an Aztec princess. She said she was the Virgin Mary and asked Juan to tell the bishop to build a church on that site. She said, "I vividly desire that a church be built on this site, so that in it I can be present and give my love, compassion, help, and defense, for I am your most devoted mother . . . to hear your laments and to remedy all your miseries, pains, and sufferings."

The bishop was kind but skeptical. He asked Juan to bring proof of the Lady's identity. Before Juan could go back to the Lady, he found out his uncle was dying. Juan missed his meeting with the Lady because of his uncle's health condition. The Lady, however, met him on his path and told him that his uncle had been cured.

She then told Juan to climb to the top of the hill where they first met. Juan was shocked to find flowers growing in the frozen soil. He gathered them in his cloak and took them at once to the bishop. Juan told the bishop what had happened and opened his cloak. The flowers that fell to the ground were Castilian roses (which were not grown in Mexico). But the bishop's eyes were on the glowing image of the Lady imprinted inside Juan's cloak.

Soon after, a church was built on the site where our Lady appeared. The signs -- of the roses, of the uncle miraculously cured of a deadly illness, and especially of her beautiful image on Juan's mantle -- convinced the people there was something to be considered in Christianity (perhaps FAITH and HOPE). Within a short time, six million Native Mexicans had themselves baptized as Christians. Juan died on May 30, 1548, at the age of 74.

God chose Mary to lead us to Jesus period! No matter what critics may say of the devotion of Mexicans (and Mexican descendants) to Mary (and what was done in Mexico), they owe their Christianity to HER influence. It is HISTORICAL FACT...one can 'believe' or not! If it were not for her, they would not know her Son, and so they are eternally grateful. An interesting note about Mary herself... Mary appeared to Juan Diego not as a European madonna but as a beautiful Aztec princess speaking to him in his own Aztec language. Talk about 'humility'.

Why quickly discard her when she is a PART of WHO JESUS IS?

[ServingHim]

Just curious about all the appearances of Mary. Fatima isn't that mohamad's wife name?Why would Mary appear in a  a town with that name?Why a shiite, aren't the young girls she appeared to shiites?  

Which brings us BACK to the original question of WHY Mary would appear to a 'shiite'? Because SHE LOVES ALL God's children as her own children (just as Christ loves ALL people...not just a select few). Remember ... For God shows no partiality (Romans 2:11) and God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).

John 19:26 is very clear that Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold, your mother" to St. John the Apostle. Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" but he said TO THE DISCIPLE ... ' behold YOUR MOTHER.' That is because Christ, at the Cross, gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose; Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother. Also, Rev. 12:17 further delves into the insight and meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. We, Christians, follow her Son, Christ; therefore, she is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ, our brother, our Savior. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

[ServingHim]

why would mary "appear" to anyone, shiite or otherwise?

she's DEAD!!! and since scripture tells us not to communicate with the dead, i would think mary, the mother of Jesus, would not attempt to communicate with us.

2 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up a high mountain apart by themselves; and he was transfigured before them, 3 and his garments became glistening, intensely white, as no fuller on earth could bleach them. 4 And there appeared to them Eli'jah with Moses; and they were talking to Jesus. 5 And Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is well that we are here; let us make three booths, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli'jah." 6 For he did not know what to say, for they were exceedingly afraid. 7 And a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is my beloved Son; listen to him." 8 And suddenly looking around they no longer saw any one with them but Jesus only. Mark 9:2-8

Apparently then this must make your head spin, for Peter and John witnessed Moses and Eli'jah TALKING before them WITH Jesus. Jesus had already DIED, was BURIED, and then ROSE FROM THE DEAD. Obviously Moses and Eli'jah had been DEAD for centuries, but apparently they are VERY MUCH ALIVE AT THIS SCENE.

Isn't that our HOPE as Christians?

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Phil 1:21

our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim 1:10

53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

"Death is swallowed up in victory."

55 "O death, where is thy victory?

O death, where is thy sting?"

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 15:53-57

So you see, LadyC, Mary is NOT DEAD at all... in fact, she is VERY MUCH ALIVE. To deny this would be to deny the power of the Cross and Christ's redemption for us all!

[jmwhalen]

ServingHim writes:

"Which brings us BACK to the original question of WHY Mary would appear to a 'shiite'? Because SHE LOVES ALL God's children as her own children (just as Christ loves ALL people...not just a select few"

Comment: People who do not trust solely in the gospel of Christ as outlined in 1 Cor. 15:1-4, and that includes those who trust in Mary in any way for their salvation, are not considered "God's children", are not "in Christ", but are considered sons of Adam,"... in Adam

[ServingHim]

we do not need anything but the Holy Bible to reveal the salvation that is to be found only in the Lord Jesus Christ.

with all due respect, jmwhalen, the Bible itself does not teach this, nor can you find anywhere in Scripture that shows that THE BIBLE is the only revelation of Christ Jesus for salvation. But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. John 21:25 ... do you think that these things were unimportant? Afterall, Jesus' apostles were with Him non-stop for his entire ministry, AND we ALL know that foundation of TRUTH is upon apostles and prophets, and of course, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, (Eph 2:20).

Mary is dead, and scripture prohibits such appearances.

so the appearances of Moses and Eli'jah are LIES?!?! They were 'DEAD' YET they appeared and Peter and John SAW THEM! AND HEARD THEM TALKING. Explain that one?! What is it that you guys think they are DEAD? Do you NOT read the Scriptures...the only thing that is gone is the physical earthly body, but not DEAD! Come on! Again, you've skirted the issue of Moses and Eli'jah....they ARE NOT DEAD, though they 'died'.

Scripture is clear that the LORD God has spoken to us finally through His Son,

Yes, Jesus IS the revelation of God our Father. But, why then did Jesus say this IF while Jesus walked on earth and taught was ALL that was revealed about God?

12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. John 16:12-13

Any appearance by someone known as "Mary" is satanic, for "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light"(2 Cor. 11:14).

Edited July 19, 2004 by ServingHim