Salvation

[improved]

All that I'm saying is that we walk away with the expectation to sin, and I think it is wrong to do so. Original Sin is imputed sin, but we trade it for imputed righteousness. Original Sin did two things, though, it made us both Legally (covered in last sentence) and Experientially sinful. the experiential, isolated events of sinning (sin, not Sin) are a pollution of our being with habits.

Salvation in its immediate effect (I think the term used was Justification) has already covered the imputed sin, making us legally sinless in His eyes(as I believe I have said thrice, now). We all agree here by this point. The indiviual sin by habit is what we are left to deal with, so I agree with everyone who has already posted. I just have heard the teaching that the original teachings on Salvation were idealistic and optimistic that we never have to sin again. The only problem is that no one has ever had the full faith to break all habits at the first instance of Salvation. The habit breaking is the process.

This thread was just inquiring on that original teaching, wondering if I had heard right. (explaining the Hebrew Roots Forum)

[Guest shiloh357]

All that I'm saying is that we walk away with the expectation to sin, and I think it is wrong to do so.

Until the stain of sin as been eradicated from human nature, we will continue to fail. None of our failures take God by surprise. That is why we have His grace. Grace is not an excuse to live in sin, but the assurance that when we do fail, we still have His forgiveness. God is not going to throw us away when we fail.

Original Sin is imputed sin, but we trade it for imputed righteousness.

No, it is not. Adam's sin was not imputed to us. Original sin is inherited, not imputed. Man is born in a state of spiritual separation from God, which is how the Bible defines spiritual death.

Righteousness on the other hand IS imputed. Imputed means credited to one's account. The righteousness received is Christ's righteousness and this cannot be inherited through our natural parentage like Original Sin can. The righteousness we receive is imputed to us on the basis of faith.

Salvation in its immediate effect (I think the term used was Justification) has already covered the imputed sin, making us legally sinless in His eyes(as I believe I have said thrice, now).

No, it does not make us legally sinless. It simply declares us justified. It is not a denial of our sinfuleness at all.

[Guest shiloh357]

As far as present day Judaism is concerned there is no concept of salvation as Christians understand the word. To merit a place in the World to Come one must simply keep the Law. For Gentiles that means observing the Seven Laws of Noah.

By original, I mean 1st Century Church, which was Jewish. Did Paul teach that we would have to get "saved from sin" over and over and over again, rededicating our lives to God as we constantly do? Or did he think that we could once and for all get Sin (Original, or Imputed, Sin) legally purged from us, and also have sinful contamination and habits purged from us as well - thus relieveing us from our obsession of being defeated by sin over and over.

He tells us that we are empowered to overcome temptation (1 Cor 10:13), which leads me to believe that he thinks we can live completely sinless forever. Grace, as I have come to understand it, means empowerment for whatever God wants us to do or be, as well as to go where He wants us to. This concept of Grace seems much stronger and more powerful to overcome sin than the one that treats Grace more like a whitewash for our inevitable sins to come in spite of our "salvation".

I think Shiloh gave you a good answer. Salvation is not an event, it's a process. I have yet to meet any Christian who has attained complete freedom from all sin. OTOH, grace should never be viewed as a license to sin. That type of thinking indicates an unrepentant heart.

Maybe a more accurate description would be to say it is an evant and a process, depending on what aspet of salvation you are describing

The event is accepting the invitation to enter the process. How's that?

Well, I think I understand what you are saying, but I think we need to be careful not to leave peope with the impression that justification is a process.

Correct. Justification is an event. Sanctification is both an event and a process.

[Guest]

Jesus Is Salvation

Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

Isaiah 49:7

And The Hebrew's Root

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Isaiah 54:5

And Jesus Is THE KING OF THE JEW

But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.

And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isaiah 49:25-26

And He Is Faithful For He Is Coming Back

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

Maranatha!

>>>>>()<<<<<

.... I have heard that the original concept of Salvation is, first of is not just Salvation from sin, but more importantly, that once that Imputed Sin is legally removed I shouldn't expect to sin again. This directly contrasts the Gentile struggle with sin and expecting to succumb to it, while thanking God for the blanket of "Grace" (which I think is misunderstood anyways) to pretend like I don't sin anymore.

What is the original view on Salvation. I feel the "Christian" view of it is wrong ....

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Galatians 6:14

Salvation Is All About The LORD Jesus Christ

HIS Work At Calvary

HIS Holy Blood

And "Whosoever Will"

Either Trust In Jesus

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

John 3:35-36(a)

Or You Are Done

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:36(b)

Either Believed God

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16

Or You Are Done

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:17-18

Either Accept The Simple Gospel Of Christ

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:3

Or You Preach Another Jesus

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 11:4

And You Are Done

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 18:6-9

>>>>>()<<<<<

Believe

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:25

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Joel 2:32

[JCISGD]

All that I'm saying is that we walk away with the expectation to sin, and I think it is wrong to do so. Original Sin is imputed sin, but we trade it for imputed righteousness. Original Sin did two things, though, it made us both Legally (covered in last sentence) and Experientially sinful. the experiential, isolated events of sinning (sin, not Sin) are a pollution of our being with habits.

Salvation in its immediate effect (I think the term used was Justification) has already covered the imputed sin, making us legally sinless in His eyes(as I believe I have said thrice, now). We all agree here by this point. The indiviual sin by habit is what we are left to deal with, so I agree with everyone who has already posted. I just have heard the teaching that the original teachings on Salvation were idealistic and optimistic that we never have to sin again. The only problem is that no one has ever had the full faith to break all habits at the first instance of Salvation. The habit breaking is the process.

This thread was just inquiring on that original teaching, wondering if I had heard right. (explaining the Hebrew Roots Forum)

The idea of imputed sin is abhorent and does not hold up under scutiny nor does imputed righteousness. I know those that have been taught otherwise will refute this and point to their favourite scriptures, but it is impossible to be held guilty for anothers sin.

Sin is a purposeful transgression of the law. It has to have two ingedients, it must have knowledge of the law and the the understand value placed on that law.

It is therefore a rejection of the law despite knowing that its value was greater than the value of the thing chosen. This and only this is sin.

What human father punishes his child unless convinced the child wilfully disobeyed in favor of its own selfish way? But if the value of the childs choice be greater than the fathers he would be morally obligated to disobey.

Humans (unaided by the Holy Spirit) are wholly unwilling to obey God, but they are able to or there could be no guilt for disobeying.

Those who were saved in OT were saved by faith in Christ to come and the sacrifices for sin were carried out because of that faith. They were not saved by the sacrifices but God saved them if their faith proved true by their works, just as we today are saved by faith and not works.

The sacrifices were to hold off Gods judgement/wrath untill the time of Christ who alone could once and for all fulfill the demands of justice that required payment for the penalty of the law broken.

[Guest shiloh357]

The idea of imputed sin is abhorent and does not hold up under scutiny nor does imputed righteousness. I know those that have been taught otherwise will refute this and point to their favourite scriptures, but it is impossible to be held guilty for anothers sin.

Which shows that you don't understand the doctrine you are criticizing.

Orginal sin is not "impute sin" and if you spent any time in quality study, you would know that. No one teaches that we are accountable for the sin of another and no one teaches that sin is imputed from person to another person. What the Bible and genuine Christianity teach is that man has inherited a sin nature from Adam. We are not guilty of Adam's sin, but Adam brought a death penalty upon all mankind as our representative head. Jesus stood as the Last Adam in order to remove that penalty.

Sin is a purposeful transgression of the law. It has to have two ingedients, it must have knowledge of the law and the the understand value placed on that law.

It is therefore a rejection of the law despite knowing that its value was greater than the value of the thing chosen. This and only this is sin.

Actually, what you are describing the sins we commit. Sin is also spiritual bondage, a condition man is born into. It is a state of spiritual separation from God and is what Jesus died to set us free from. (Romans8)

[JCISGD]

The idea of imputed sin is abhorent and does not hold up under scutiny nor does imputed righteousness. I know those that have been taught otherwise will refute this and point to their favourite scriptures, but it is impossible to be held guilty for anothers sin.

Which shows that you don't understand the doctrine you are criticizing.

Orginal sin is not "impute sin" and if you spent any time in quality study, you would know that. No one teaches that we are accountable for the sin of another and no one teaches that sin is imputed from person to another person. What the Bible and genuine Christianity teach is that man has inherited a sin nature from Adam. We are not guilty of Adam's sin, but Adam brought a death penalty upon all mankind as our representative head. Jesus stood as the Last Adam in order to remove that penalty.

Sin is a purposeful transgression of the law. It has to have two ingedients, it must have knowledge of the law and the the understand value placed on that law.

It is therefore a rejection of the law despite knowing that its value was greater than the value of the thing chosen. This and only this is sin.

Actually, what you are describing the sins we commit. Sin is also spiritual bondage, a condition man is born into. It is a state of spiritual separation from God and is what Jesus died to set us free from. (Romans8)

Dictionary.com states impute Theology- to attribute (righteousness, guilt etc) to a person(s) vicariously; ascribe as derived from another. If inherited sin does not impute sin then im sorry but i misunderstand the english language.

Reguardless an inherited sin is also a nonsense as i pointed out there can be no guilt unless it be purposeful rebellion to a law of greater value than the thing we choose, and if no guilt then no justifiable cause to threaten hell for breaking it. If we have inherited sin from Adam then we are being punished indirectly for his sin and are we not therefore being held to account for his sin also as well as ours?

Shiloh this is an open forum, please dont rubbish my right to opinion by attacking my knowledge or lack of it. I have never rubbished you or your right to hold your opinion and i am bound to oppose your veiw if i genuinely hold mine from firm conviction and careful study.

[leoxiii]

Does God deceive Himself? Can we sin and He does not see it or take notice of it? I think not. Salvation is a process wherein we are actually made righteous and sinless. Nothing unclean can enter into the heavenly city. Not fornicators or liars or adulterers or slanderers or those filled with wrath. Man was created sinless. His natural state is sinlessness. Christ came to restore us to that original natural state. We struggle and fall and get up and struggle again. And each time we fall less and less and less. Whatever is not purged out of us in this life is purged out of us before we enter into heavenly glory.

[Smalcald]

Leo I assume you are speaking of purgatory as a final means of sanctification for those going to heaven?

I have two questions, in your doctrine does Christ forgive all the sins of those who repent and believe in Christ as thier Lord? Or does He only forgive the sins after we have proved ourselves in some way through our actions? Secondly is purgatory a path toward heaven? I never really understood purgatory, is it part of heaven? Can someone go to purgatory and not make it to heaven?

Thanks.

[JCISGD]

God changes nothing in us physically and we have all we need to obey God fully its just that we dont want to, and this is where God uses moral persuassion to bring us to repentance and then entire sanctification if we are williing. Glorification will not change a sinful disposition it is only a change of body suits, the old one being corruptable and dying, but the glorified body cannot taste death.

Elijah and Enoch are in heaven with purified bodies but have yet to get there glorified bodies.

The idea that we God makes us like robots who have to sin, and then tweaks something so that we no longer sin, makes sin a nonsense and merely an default setting with no guilt and no need of punishing in hell.