Daniel 11 and the End Trib Rapture

[WolfBitn]

Daniel 11

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I believe that this ^^^ is the most telling passage of scripture, detailing the time of the rapture, pinpointing it in relation to the return of Christ at the time of the end... it looks like bombs may very well be in the air... but i reserve going that far, suffice it to say this pinpoints it very near the end of what we commonly call the great tribulation.

! cor 15 pinpoints it at this same time...

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Matthew 24 pinpoints it at the same time

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

But i believe ALL rapture timing passages are better understood by using Daniel 11:40-12:2 as a base or foundation for the rest

[WolfBitn]

bumping for a responce ... lotsa reads no responces yet lol

[Guest man]

bumping for a responce ... lotsa reads no responces yet lol

Are those the only verses you have?

[WolfBitn]

bumping for a responce ... lotsa reads no responces yet lol

Are those the only verses you have?

Not at all

2Thes.2

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

(Or i ask you concerning the Coming of Christ AND OUR GATHERING together to be with him... these are the 2 subjects at hand)

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

(Don't worry even if an angel tells you different or if you receive some letter supposedly from me saying the Day of Christ is at hand... meaning His coming and our gathering together to be with him)

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

( Don't let anyone fool you because Christ CANNOT come and neither can we be gathered to be with Him until these 2 things happen

1) the church must fall from the truth

2) the church must see Antichrist )

[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

(Antichrist will sit in the temple of God claiming that he IS God)

[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

(Don't you remember when we went over these things?)

[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

(Now that I've told you again remember this time... NOW YOU KNOW what is witholding the coming of Christ and our gathering to be with Him)

[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

(the mystery that brings us to a fullness of sin is already trying to rise up, and ONLY he who is charged to restrain its rise can restrain him from rising, until he who restrains is taken out of the way)

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

(then the Son of Perdition can rise or be revealed... this is the Antichrist who will be dealt with at the coming of Christ)

[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

(that's right i'm talking about Antichrist)

[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

(He will be full of deception and lead those who do not love the truth into even deeper unrighteousness... so that they CANNOT BE SAVED... THIS IS PROBABLY HINTING AT THE MARK OF THE BEAST ITSELF)

[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

(God shall let them go their own way... He will even reinforce their delusion since that's the way they want to go)

[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

(And since they wont believe God... truth... but take such pleasure in all the pains of unrighteousness that delusion will seal their damnation)

1 Cor. 15:

[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality

We see here another timing passage concerning the rapture. We are told that the coming resurrection takes place "at the last trump". Now Revelation shows us the 7 trumpets which sound during the tribulation. If the resurrection takes place before the 7th trumpet is sounded then this passage is lying to us.

Joshuah put forth a challenge to "chose this day whom ye will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord." I put forth the same challenge to chose this day whom we will believe, man or God. As for me and my house, we will serve God.

Revelation 11:15-19

[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

[17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This is the 7th trump as it is sounded. Here we see as 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 verified, that at the 7th trump the dead are judged and the saints are rewarded.

Now consider closely verse 15. We are told outright again, that this is the time that Christ takes the kingdoms of the world.

Theres lots more, but i dont want to make the post too long

[Guest man]

Theres lots more, but i dont want to make the post too long

Yeah, some people don't read long posts. I know I rarely do.

The verses you gave were good.

Other than rapture references, do you have any verses that would indicate that the believer will be here until the very end?

[WolfBitn]

Theres lots more, but i dont want to make the post too long

Yeah, some people don't read long posts. I know I rarely do.

The verses you gave were good.

Other than rapture references, do you have any verses that would indicate that the believer will be here until the very end?

I think Daniel 11:40-12:2 does that to a pinpoint... but i have several more tha all say the same thing. We go through the trib and we arent delivered until the end

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

[ColleenLovesMischief]

bumping for a responce ... lotsa reads no responces yet lol

Are those the only verses you have?

Not at all

2Thes.2

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

(Or i ask you concerning the Coming of Christ AND OUR GATHERING together to be with him... these are the 2 subjects at hand)

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

(Don't worry even if an angel tells you different or if you receive some letter supposedly from me saying the Day of Christ is at hand... meaning His coming and our gathering together to be with him)

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

( Don't let anyone fool you because Christ CANNOT come and neither can we be gathered to be with Him until these 2 things happen

1) the church must fall from the truth

2) the church must see Antichrist )

[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

(Antichrist will sit in the temple of God claiming that he IS God)

[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

(Don't you remember when we went over these things?)

[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

(Now that I've told you again remember this time... NOW YOU KNOW what is witholding the coming of Christ and our gathering to be with Him)

[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

(the mystery that brings us to a fullness of sin is already trying to rise up, and ONLY he who is charged to restrain its rise can restrain him from rising, until he who restrains is taken out of the way)

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

(then the Son of Perdition can rise or be revealed... this is the Antichrist who will be dealt with at the coming of Christ)

[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

(that's right i'm talking about Antichrist)

[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

(He will be full of deception and lead those who do not love the truth into even deeper unrighteousness... so that they CANNOT BE SAVED... THIS IS PROBABLY HINTING AT THE MARK OF THE BEAST ITSELF)

[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

(God shall let them go their own way... He will even reinforce their delusion since that's the way they want to go)

[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

(And since they wont believe God... truth... but take such pleasure in all the pains of unrighteousness that delusion will seal their damnation)

1 Cor. 15:

[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality

We see here another timing passage concerning the rapture. We are told that the coming resurrection takes place "at the last trump". Now Revelation shows us the 7 trumpets which sound during the tribulation. If the resurrection takes place before the 7th trumpet is sounded then this passage is lying to us.

Joshuah put forth a challenge to "chose this day whom ye will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord." I put forth the same challenge to chose this day whom we will believe, man or God. As for me and my house, we will serve God.

Revelation 11:15-19

[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

[17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This is the 7th trump as it is sounded. Here we see as 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 verified, that at the 7th trump the dead are judged and the saints are rewarded.

Now consider closely verse 15. We are told outright again, that this is the time that Christ takes the kingdoms of the world.

Nice ones. LOL take it you like my signature.

Theres lots more, but i dont want to make the post too long

[Massorite]

bumping for a responce ... lotsa reads no responses yet lol

Are those the only verses you have?

How many verses do you need? "AFTER the tribulation of those days" is as clear as it gets. But the pre-tribbers don't want to go there so they dance all around it with all kinds of other scriptures that are no where near as clear as that one. But there are several more verses that say the same things about how the tribulation will start before the return of Christ.

[WolfBitn]

Nice ones. LOL take it you like my signature.

i LOVE your signature

[WolfBitn]

bumping for a responce ... lotsa reads no responses yet lol

Are those the only verses you have?

How many verses do you need? "AFTER the tribulation of those days" is as clear as it gets. But the pre-tribbers don't want to go there so they dance all around it with all kinds of other scriptures that are no where near as clear as that one. But there are several more verses that say the same things about how the tribulation will start before the return of Christ.

Problem is, it doesn't follow that all these verses are talking about the same event. The assumption is that just because these passages use the word tribulation, trouble. etc, they are speaking about one particular event to the exclusion of all other events. That's a non-sequiter.

Then youre only reading half the verse. Dan 12 for instance states that its at THIS TIME (armageddon, the worst time this world will ever see) that everyone written in the book is delivered.