Daniel 11 and the End Trib Rapture

[ColleenLovesMischief]

It only had to be broken down to this for me.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In reading revelation the trumpets are there. So there is no way the last trump could be before mid tribulation. But then read this.

Then I was shown this.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If that is the first resurrection there is no way there could have been one of only the saved people before that is there?

After the thousand years comes judgment according to Revelation

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[Guest man]

bumping for a responce ... lotsa reads no responses yet lol

Are those the only verses you have?

How many verses do you need? "AFTER the tribulation of those days" is as clear as it gets. But the pre-tribbers don't want to go there so they dance all around it with all kinds of other scriptures that are no where near as clear as that one. But there are several more verses that say the same things about how the tribulation will start before the return of Christ.

Then why not put them out there for people to see?

What can it hurt? If anything, it will strengthen your stance.

[WolfBitn]

Excellent passages Colleen. Kudos

Concerning the 1Cor 15:50-53 passage, concerning the last trump, I like putting Rev 11 side by side with this

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Rev 11 shows us the very last time a trumpet sounding in the entire book of revelation... the last trump, and we see this is the time the saints are rewarded

Revelation 11:15-19

[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

[17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This is the 7th trump as it is sounded. Here we see as 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 verified, that at the 7th trump the dead are judged and the saints are rewarded.

Now consider closely verse 15. We are told outright again, that this is the time that Christ takes the kingdoms of the world.

[WolfBitn]

bumping for a responce ... lotsa reads no responses yet lol

Are those the only verses you have?

How many verses do you need? "AFTER the tribulation of those days" is as clear as it gets. But the pre-tribbers don't want to go there so they dance all around it with all kinds of other scriptures that are no where near as clear as that one. But there are several more verses that say the same things about how the tribulation will start before the return of Christ.

Then why not put them out there for people to see?

What can it hurt? If anything, it will strengthen your stance.

How many passages have been listed already? theres far too many to put even in 10 posts. The case needs no more strengthening because we already have FAR more than 2-3 witnesses in scripture itself listed, EXPLICITLY showing that we are raptured at the end. Therefore this and this alone is sound rapture doctrine because God Himself is plainly speaking here and testifying these things will happen as written

but heres some more just for you

Revelation 16:

[12] And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

[13] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

[14] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

[15] Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

[16] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

[17] And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

The above passage occurs very near the end of the tribulation. The events occurring here take place between the 6th and 7th vial. At the 6th vial the Euphrates river is dried to make way for 200,000,000 oriental troops. Not just the Chinese are involves, these are the KINGS, plural, of the east.

In verse 13 Satan

[WolfBitn]

bumping for a responce ... lotsa reads no responses yet lol

Are those the only verses you have?

How many verses do you need? "AFTER the tribulation of those days" is as clear as it gets. But the pre-tribbers don't want to go there so they dance all around it with all kinds of other scriptures that are no where near as clear as that one. But there are several more verses that say the same things about how the tribulation will start before the return of Christ.

Problem is, it doesn't follow that all these verses are talking about the same event. The assumption is that just because these passages use the word tribulation, trouble. etc, they are speaking about one particular event to the exclusion of all other events. That's a non-sequiter.

Then youre only reading half the verse. Dan 12 for instance states that its at THIS TIME (armageddon, the worst time this world will ever see) that everyone written in the book is delivered.

It still doesn't follow that all of these verses are connected and point to a single event to the exclusion of all others. Show me the connection. Otherwise, you're engaging in eisogesis.

No no... IT follows, you arent, and its so simple. Thats what stinks about seminary. All too often all one comes away from them learning not to believe what the bible literally says. Far too many, have lost their innocense in many cases and no longer remember how to simply read and then believe like a child

[WolfBitn]

Rufus

Lets start all over between ourselves. I have nothing agianst you and im sure you feel the same

I am posting a portion of Daniel. Tell me how you read the bolded... what do YOU see in this?

We can toss it back and forth and take them 1 and 2 and 3 at a time so we dont confuse this any more than it has to be.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[Massorite]

bumping for a responce ... lotsa reads no responses yet lol

Are those the only verses you have?

How many verses do you need? "AFTER the tribulation of those days" is as clear as it gets. But the pre-tribbers don't want to go there so they dance all around it with all kinds of other scriptures that are no where near as clear as that one. But there are several more verses that say the same things about how the tribulation will start before the return of Christ.

Problem is, it doesn't follow that all these verses are talking about the same event. The assumption is that just because these passages use the word tribulation, trouble. etc, they are speaking about one particular event to the exclusion of all other events. That's a non-sequiter.

Then youre only reading half the verse. Dan 12 for instance states that its at THIS TIME (armageddon, the worst time this world will ever see) that everyone written in the book is delivered.

It still doesn't follow that all of these verses are connected and point to a single event to the exclusion of all others. Show me the connection. Otherwise, you're engaging in eisogesis.

Good point Rufus.

[WolfBitn]

Actually i thought i had showed how these all worked together... but im willing to go a step and a scripture at a time... so to begin this, id just like to have rufas or whoever tell me what they see in this passage, especially the bolded parts

Rufus

Lets start all over between ourselves. I have nothing agianst you and im sure you feel the same

I am posting a portion of Daniel. Tell me how you read the bolded... what do YOU see in this?

We can toss it back and forth and take them 1 and 2 and 3 at a time so we dont confuse this any more than it has to be.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[Massorite]

Actually i thought i had showed how these all worked together... but im willing to go a step and a scripture at a time... so to begin this, id just like to have rufas or whoever tell me what they see in this passage, especially the bolded parts

Rufus

Lets start all over between ourselves. I have nothing agianst you and im sure you feel the same

I am posting a portion of Daniel. Tell me how you read the bolded... what do YOU see in this?

We can toss it back and forth and take them 1 and 2 and 3 at a time so we dont confuse this any more than it has to be.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Agreed. These verses do speak of the resurrection and it is interesting that some who will awaken and rise out of the grave during the ressurection will be going to "shame and everlasting contempt". So much for "once saved always saved".

[WolfBitn]

Actually i thought i had showed how these all worked together... but im willing to go a step and a scripture at a time... so to begin this, id just like to have rufas or whoever tell me what they see in this passage, especially the bolded parts

Rufus

Lets start all over between ourselves. I have nothing agianst you and im sure you feel the same

I am posting a portion of Daniel. Tell me how you read the bolded... what do YOU see in this?

We can toss it back and forth and take them 1 and 2 and 3 at a time so we dont confuse this any more than it has to be.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Agreed. These verses do speak of the resurrection and it is interesting that some who will awaken and rise out of the grave during the ressurection will be going to "shame and everlasting contempt". So much for "once saved always saved".

Amen Massorite.

Now lets put Daniel 12 with Matthew 24

21For then there will be great tribulation (affliction, distress, and oppression) such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now--no, and never will be [again].

22And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive, but for the sake of the elect (God's chosen ones) those days will be shortened.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].

31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the universe to the other.

So we see that in both cases this is the time of trouble like the world has never seen.. and we are gathered at the signal of the trumpet... which neccessarily HAS to be the LAST trumpet.

1 Cor 15

51Take notice! I tell you a mystery (a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God). We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed (transformed)

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).

and this is AT HIS COMING

22For just as [because of their [c]union of nature] in Adam all people die, so also [by virtue of their [d]union of nature] shall all in Christ be made alive.

23But each in his own rank and turn: Christ (the Messiah) [is] the firstfruits, then those who are Christ's [own will be resurrected] at His coming.

So so far this ties in Dan 12, Mt 24, and 1 Cor 15:19-21 and 50-52

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