Daniel 11 and the End Trib Rapture

[lekh l'kha]

2 things

1) in case you didnt know it Daniel was written for the entire world just as the rest of scripture is, and the prophecies concern the entire world.

2) "Last" doesnt mean "next to last", it means "Last".

And let me ask why you tie Gods hands and say the only way He can spare us from His wrath is by rapturing us? This has never ever been the case... Look at Israel just before the Exodus... in egypt with His wrath falling all around them, yet not touching them, but on the flip side, pharoah increased their burden

I would recommend finding a single passage saying you are raptured pre trib, stating it outright, or simply believing the ones that do state outright we are raised up at the last day, at the last trump.

Daniel was written so that all the children of God at all times after the prophecy was given would know what would happen at the end times. But, as I have already pointed out, the prophecies given to Daniel were for and to Isreal and the Jewish people, and there is no way that you can interpret them any other way. It states very clearly: "your people" (the Jews) and "your holy city" (Jerusalem). These prophecies are not for the church and could not be for the church since the church was an unknown concept at the time that none of the prophets knew about.

Romans 16:25-26 25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him--

Ephesians 3:2-6 2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

As I said, if you are going to take the Bible literally, please do so. Not ever prophecy in the Bible is meant for the church or is about the church.

As for tying God's hands, exactly how am I doing that? I believe that scripture inplicitly teaches a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. You are free to disagree, and I will not demean you for that belief, but neither will I be demeaned by you for mine.

Please display for me a scripture that says the "last trump" is the same as the 7th trumpet in Revelation. You know about the scriptures used to teach a pre-trib rapture as well as I do. You won't get anywhere that way.

Good point Cobalt. Though there is no scriptural proof I have heard that the seventh trump actually sounds first. The only reason I would even think about going down that road is because the first thru the fifth trumps sound like the wrath of God. The sixth trump speaks of the battle of Armageddon which means that if the seventh trump sounds last after the battle then Jesus doesn't return to recieve us or resurrect us until after the seven years are complete.

As much As I have studied and researched I have never been able to make any sense out of the seventh trump prophecy.

When the seventh trumpet sounded on the seventh day and the seventh time the Israelites marched around Jericho, the walls fell flat. It was the last trumpet.

The deliverance of the redeemed occurred the same day that Pharaoh and his armies were judged. What about the judgment day of the beast and his armies?

The Israelites were in Egypt while the plagues were being poured out - but the plagues never harmed them.

The deliverance of the redeemed occurred on the same day that the flood began to come upon the world - the seventh of seven days (the flood-waters lifted the ark out).

The sounding of the 7th trumpet (Rev.11: 15) is sandwiched between (a) the verses describing resurrection from the dead and removal into heaven of the two witness; and (b) the verses describing God's judgment coming upon the world.

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (Rev.16: 15).

Jesus interjects those words slap-bang in the middle of talking about the sixth bowl of wrath - Armageddon.

"Noises, thunderings, lightnings and an earthquake" are the final closing-verse descriptions of the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath - except that "hail" is added to the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath.

The judgment of Jericho came in the seventh of a cycle of seven. The flood came in the seventh of seven days. The Great White Throne judgment comes at the completion of a cycle of seven (thousand years), and whether it be seven thousand years since the fall of Adam or since the creation of the world, makes no difference.

It was after the Israelites had been redeemed (after the day Pharaoh and his armies were judged) that the Israelites sang the song of Moses (on the other side of the Red sea, Exodus 15).

Will it be before the beast and his armies are judged that the redeemed saints sing the song of Moses (Rev.15: 3-4)?

The faithful remnant who refused to worship Nebuchadnezzar's image were thrown into the midst of the burning, fiery furnace, and Nebuchadnezzar was so enraged at them that he turned up the heat sevenfold (Daniel chapter 3).

"He answered and said, Behold! I see four men loose, walking in the middle of the fire, and there is no harm among them. And the form of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

Then Nebuchadnezzar came near the door of the burning fiery furnace.

He answered and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come forth and come here. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth from the middle of the fire." (Dan.3: 25-26).

"And they (the two witnesses who had been martyred and then rose from the dead three and a half days later) heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them." (Rev.11: 12).

What do all these Biblical facts teach us? Do they teach us that the rapture will come before the day the beast and his armies are judged?

I don't know the answer, either. Many Christians know the answer - and their answers contradict one another

Still, it's nice to deabate

[Massorite]

2 things

1) in case you didnt know it Daniel was written for the entire world just as the rest of scripture is, and the prophecies concern the entire world.

2) "Last" doesnt mean "next to last", it means "Last".

And let me ask why you tie Gods hands and say the only way He can spare us from His wrath is by rapturing us? This has never ever been the case... Look at Israel just before the Exodus... in egypt with His wrath falling all around them, yet not touching them, but on the flip side, pharoah increased their burden

I would recommend finding a single passage saying you are raptured pre trib, stating it outright, or simply believing the ones that do state outright we are raised up at the last day, at the last trump.

Daniel was written so that all the children of God at all times after the prophecy was given would know what would happen at the end times. But, as I have already pointed out, the prophecies given to Daniel were for and to Isreal and the Jewish people, and there is no way that you can interpret them any other way. It states very clearly: "your people" (the Jews) and "your holy city" (Jerusalem). These prophecies are not for the church and could not be for the church since the church was an unknown concept at the time that none of the prophets knew about.

Romans 16:25-26 25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him--

Ephesians 3:2-6 2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

As I said, if you are going to take the Bible literally, please do so. Not ever prophecy in the Bible is meant for the church or is about the church.

As for tying God's hands, exactly how am I doing that? I believe that scripture inplicitly teaches a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. You are free to disagree, and I will not demean you for that belief, but neither will I be demeaned by you for mine.

Please display for me a scripture that says the "last trump" is the same as the 7th trumpet in Revelation. You know about the scriptures used to teach a pre-trib rapture as well as I do. You won't get anywhere that way.

Good point Cobalt. Though there is no scriptural proof I have heard that the seventh trump actually sounds first. The only reason I would even think about going down that road is because the first thru the fifth trumps sound like the wrath of God. The sixth trump speaks of the battle of Armageddon which means that if the seventh trump sounds last after the battle then Jesus doesn't return to recieve us or resurrect us until after the seven years are complete.

As much As I have studied and researched I have never been able to make any sense out of the seventh trump prophecy.

When the seventh trumpet sounded on the seventh day and the seventh time the Israelites marched around Jericho, the walls fell flat. It was the last trumpet.

The deliverance of the redeemed occurred the same day that Pharaoh and his armies were judged. What about the judgment day of the beast and his armies?

The Israelites were in Egypt while the plagues were being poured out - but the plagues never harmed them.

The deliverance of the redeemed occurred on the same day that the flood began to come upon the world - the seventh of seven days (the flood-waters lifted the ark out).

The sounding of the 7th trumpet (Rev.11: 15) is sandwiched between (a) the verses describing resurrection from the dead and removal into heaven of the two witness; and (b) the verses describing God's judgment coming upon the world.

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (Rev.16: 15).

Jesus interjects those words slap-bang in the middle of talking about the sixth bowl of wrath - Armageddon.

"Noises, thunderings, lightnings and an earthquake" are the final closing-verse descriptions of the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath - except that "hail" is added to the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath.

The judgment of Jericho came in the seventh of a cycle of seven. The flood came in the seventh of seven days. The Great White Throne judgment comes at the completion of a cycle of seven (thousand years), and whether it be seven thousand years since the fall of Adam or since the creation of the world, makes no difference.

It was after the Israelites had been redeemed (after the day Pharaoh and his armies were judged) that the Israelites sang the song of Moses (on the other side of the Red sea, Exodus 15).

Will it be before the beast and his armies are judged that the redeemed saints sing the song of Moses (Rev.15: 3-4)?

The faithful remnant who refused to worship Nebuchadnezzar's image were thrown into the midst of the burning, fiery furnace, and Nebuchadnezzar was so enraged at them that he turned up the heat sevenfold (Daniel chapter 3).

"He answered and said, Behold! I see four men loose, walking in the middle of the fire, and there is no harm among them. And the form of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

Then Nebuchadnezzar came near the door of the burning fiery furnace.

He answered and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come forth and come here. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth from the middle of the fire." (Dan.3: 25-26).

"And they (the two witnesses who had been martyred and then rose from the dead three and a half days later) heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them." (Rev.11: 12).

What do all these Biblical facts teach us? Do they teach us that the rapture will come before the day the beast and his armies are judged?

I don't know the answer, either. Many Christians know the answer - and their answers contradict one another

Still, it's nice to deabate

Well said.

[lekh l'kha]

... What happens after this? After the tares are bundled and prepared to be burnt, then

[Massorite]

... What happens after this? After the tares are bundled and prepared to be burnt, then

[Massorite]

2 things

1) in case you didnt know it Daniel was written for the entire world just as the rest of scripture is, and the prophecies concern the entire world.

2) "Last" doesn't mean "next to last", it means "Last".

And let me ask why you tie Gods hands and say the only way He can spare us from His wrath is by rapturing us? This has never ever been the case... Look at Israel just before the Exodus... in Egypt with His wrath falling all around them, yet not touching them, but on the flip side, Pharaoh increased their burden

I would recommend finding a single passage saying you are raptured pre trib, stating it outright, or simply believing the ones that do state outright we are raised up at the last day, at the last trump.

Daniel was written so that all the children of God at all times after the prophecy was given would know what would happen at the end times. But, as I have already pointed out, the prophecies given to Daniel were for and to Israel and the Jewish people, and there is no way that you can interpret them any other way. It states very clearly: "your people" (the Jews) and "your holy city" (Jerusalem). These prophecies are not for the church and could not be for the church since the church was an unknown concept at the time that none of the prophets knew about.

Romans 16:25-26 25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him--

Ephesians 3:2-6 2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

As I said, if you are going to take the Bible literally, please do so. Not ever prophecy in the Bible is meant for the church or is about the church.

As for tying God's hands, exactly how am I doing that? I believe that scripture inplicitly teaches a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. You are free to disagree, and I will not demean you for that belief, but neither will I be demeaned by you for mine.

Please display for me a scripture that says the "last trump" is the same as the 7th trumpet in Revelation. You know about the scriptures used to teach a pre-trib rapture as well as I do. You won't get anywhere that way.

Good point Cobalt. Though there is no scriptural proof I have heard that the seventh trump actually sounds first. The only reason I would even think about going down that road is because the first thru the fifth trumps sound like the wrath of God. The sixth trump speaks of the battle of Armageddon which means that if the seventh trump sounds last after the battle then Jesus doesn't return to recieve us or resurrect us until after the seven years are complete.

As much As I have studied and researched I have never been able to make any sense out of the seventh trump prophecy.

When the seventh trumpet sounded on the seventh day and the seventh time the Israelites marched around Jericho, the walls fell flat. It was the last trumpet.

The deliverance of the redeemed occurred the same day that Pharaoh and his armies were judged. What about the judgment day of the beast and his armies?

The Israelites were in Egypt while the plagues were being poured out - but the plagues never harmed them.

The deliverance of the redeemed occurred on the same day that the flood began to come upon the world - the seventh of seven days (the flood-waters lifted the ark out).

The sounding of the 7th trumpet (Rev.11: 15) is sandwiched between (a) the verses describing resurrection from the dead and removal into heaven of the two witness; and (b) the verses describing God's judgment coming upon the world.

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (Rev.16: 15).

Jesus interjects those words slap-bang in the middle of talking about the sixth bowl of wrath - Armageddon.

"Noises, thunderings, lightnings and an earthquake" are the final closing-verse descriptions of the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath - except that "hail" is added to the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath.

The judgment of Jericho came in the seventh of a cycle of seven. The flood came in the seventh of seven days. The Great White Throne judgment comes at the completion of a cycle of seven (thousand years), and whether it be seven thousand years since the fall of Adam or since the creation of the world, makes no difference.

It was after the Israelites had been redeemed (after the day Pharaoh and his armies were judged) that the Israelites sang the song of Moses (on the other side of the Red sea, Exodus 15).

Will it be before the beast and his armies are judged that the redeemed saints sing the song of Moses (Rev.15: 3-4)?

The faithful remnant who refused to worship Nebuchadnezzar's image were thrown into the midst of the burning, fiery furnace, and Nebuchadnezzar was so enraged at them that he turned up the heat sevenfold (Daniel chapter 3).

"He answered and said, Behold! I see four men loose, walking in the middle of the fire, and there is no harm among them. And the form of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

Then Nebuchadnezzar came near the door of the burning fiery furnace.

He answered and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come forth and come here. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth from the middle of the fire." (Dan.3: 25-26).

"And they (the two witnesses who had been martyred and then rose from the dead three and a half days later) heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them." (Rev.11: 12).

What do all these Biblical facts teach us? Do they teach us that the rapture will come before the day the beast and his armies are judged?

I don't know the answer, either. Many Christians know the answer - and their answers contradict one another

Still, it's nice to deabate

I don't think the scriptures you quoted can be used as a reference in this case because they don't line up with what is spoken in Revelation but you have a good point.

But I can say yes the bible does tell us that the antichrist will appear before the return of Jesus in 2 Thess 2:3. and we need to remember that the man on white horse of the first seal is the antichrist. The man on the white horse has no power to kill and the words "to conquer and conquering" are not talking about war. They are translated from the Greek words "to overcome and overcoming" which are talking about how the antichrist will fool the world into believing that he is the chosen one.

[Guest kaoticprofit]

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Edited September 13, 2009 by kaoticprofit