WN: Lutherans to Vote on Sexually Active Gay Clergy - Washington Post

[Guest LadyC]

andy, i think you overlooked the significance of what i said in an earlier post. once a person has committed themselves to living for the Lord, they should NO LONGER label themselves as gay... period. they are a new creature in Christ. they learn to take every thought captive to Christ.

so you're about ten points away from a bulls-eye with your assessment. if they're no longer a practicing homosexual, you don't understand why they can't be in ministry.

the answer is because they are still identifying themselves as homosexual. they need to give that label up to the Lord and acknowledge that they are simply a new creature in Christ that, like everyone, has to die to themselves on a daily basis.

[~candice~]

andy, i think you overlooked the significance of what i said in an earlier post. once a person has committed themselves to living for the Lord, they should NO LONGER label themselves as gay... period. they are a new creature in Christ. they learn to take every thought captive to Christ.

so you're about ten points away from a bulls-eye with your assessment. if they're no longer a practicing homosexual, you don't understand why they can't be in ministry.

the answer is because they are still identifying themselves as homosexual. they need to give that label up to the Lord and acknowledge that they are simply a new creature in Christ that, like everyone, has to die to themselves on a daily basis.

Actually, I agreed with you here and here on this very issue. They aren't "gay" anymore, they are christians. Just to be crystal clear, yet again, I am NOT referring to those people who still refer to themselves as gay, I do NOT believe that a minister, or indeed any christian, can state that they are gay and thats it is ok because they don't act on that. I have stated this so many times...

[Guest LadyC]

but but but.... LOL sorry, something is getting lost in transmission... but you keep bringing up the issue of them having once lived a gay lifestyle...

What I am trying to say is that the gay part of that person is redundant, they are living asexually. Where is the problem with this person serving, according to the passages above in Timothy an Titus? I wouldn't even call them a gay person anymore, just someone who had this in their past.

if the person is not gay anymore, they're not gay anymore! that's all there is to it! a non-gay person can serve in ministry, providing they aren't actively practicing some other unrepented sin. i think everyone in this thread has pretty much agreed with this, so it's a moot point. or it should be. i think you're getting hung up on the way someone worded it, saying they had to be straight. the average person sees sexuality as black and white... gay or straight, no in between. so when someone says the person has to be straight, what they're saying is that the formerly gay person has to have been delivered from the bondage of homosexuality.

[~candice~]

but but but.... LOL sorry, something is getting lost in transmission... but you keep bringing up the issue of them having once lived a gay lifestyle...

What I am trying to say is that the gay part of that person is redundant, they are living asexually. Where is the problem with this person serving, according to the passages above in Timothy an Titus? I wouldn't even call them a gay person anymore, just someone who had this in their past.

if the person is not gay anymore, they're not gay anymore! that's all there is to it! a non-gay person can serve in ministry, providing they aren't actively practicing some other unrepented sin. i think everyone in this thread has pretty much agreed with this, so it's a moot point. or it should be. i think you're getting hung up on the way someone worded it, saying they had to be straight. the average person sees sexuality as black and white... gay or straight, no in between. so when someone says the person has to be straight, what they're saying is that the formerly gay person has to have been delivered from the bondage of homosexuality.

Because it is not black and white. Have a look on wiki at the Kinsey scale. A person, whose past included homosexual attraction, can...

• still struggle with their desires and daily battle againt them in the spirit
  
• overcome their struggles to the point where it isn't a daily battle for them anymore, but realise that it sits in the background, much like an exalcoholic or exsmoker realises that one drink or one puff would put them right back under bondage again because that propensity is still within them
  
• loose their desire for the same sex and yet not gain a desire for the opposite sex (asexual)
  
• loose their desire for the same sex and gain a desire for the opposite sex (straight)
  

All of these people are saved. The last two, I have no problem with entering ministry. The first should not enter ministry. The second... I believe that is unclear.

[Guest man]

In case anyone's interested.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090822/ap_on_..._lutherans_gays

[Guest LadyC]

then i'm afraid you're still missing my point

EVERY christian has a past, and every person is always one step away from falling back into their old lifestyle. it doesn't matter if that lifestyle is drugs or alcohol or porn or homosexuality. but the point is, they should never wear those labels again! the ONLY label they need to wear is *Christian*. a new creature in Christ.

the kinsey scale, which i am familiar with, is a bunch of psychobabble and is irrelevant in light of what God's word has to say. and this list...

* still struggle with their desires and daily battle againt them in the spirit

* overcome their struggles to the point where it isn't a daily battle for them anymore, but realise that it sits in the background, much like an exalcoholic or exsmoker realises that one drink or one puff would put them right back under bondage again because that propensity is still within them

* loose their desire for the same sex and yet not gain a desire for the opposite sex (asexual)

* loose their desire for the same sex and gain a desire for the opposite sex (straight)

all comes down to the same thing.... in the eyes of God, they are not gay. and as long as they die to themselves daily, (in all sin, whether they still struggle with that sin or not) take every thought captive to Christ, then what they are is a child of God. period. they are no longer gay! they are no longer a druggie or an alcoholic or a sex addict.

if they continue to label themselves as being gay, then they are not fully trusting God for the transformation that He promised! and if they continue to label themselves as gay, then they have no place in ministry. and that's just how it is!

i wish i could help you to understand this, but i fear i'm still making it about as clear as mud. but in any case, i really must go to bed now.

[Guest LadyC]

by the way, maybe this will help... i hope...

when i say delivered from the bondage of homosexuality, that doesn't mean the person will never have a homosexual thought again, or will never be tempted again. it means they are not a slave to their sin, because they have become a servant of Christ.

[~candice~]

then i'm afraid you're still missing my point

EVERY christian has a past, and every person is always one step away from falling back into their old lifestyle. it doesn't matter if that lifestyle is drugs or alcohol or porn or homosexuality. but the point is, they should never wear those labels again! the ONLY label they need to wear is *Christian*. a new creature in Christ.

the kinsey scale, which i am familiar with, is a bunch of psychobabble and is irrelevant in light of what God's word has to say. and this list...

* still struggle with their desires and daily battle againt them in the spirit

* overcome their struggles to the point where it isn't a daily battle for them anymore, but realise that it sits in the background, much like an exalcoholic or exsmoker realises that one drink or one puff would put them right back under bondage again because that propensity is still within them

* loose their desire for the same sex and yet not gain a desire for the opposite sex (asexual)

* loose their desire for the same sex and gain a desire for the opposite sex (straight)

all comes down to the same thing.... in the eyes of God, they are not gay. and as long as they die to themselves daily, (in all sin, whether they still struggle with that sin or not) take every thought captive to Christ, then what they are is a child of God. period. they are no longer gay! they are no longer a druggie or an alcoholic or a sex addict.

if they continue to label themselves as being gay, then they are not fully trusting God for the transformation that He promised! and if they continue to label themselves as gay, then they have no place in ministry. and that's just how it is!

i wish i could help you to understand this, but i fear i'm still making it about as clear as mud. but in any case, i really must go to bed now.

I do understand what you are saying. In the eyes of God, these people are no longer gay. This is the third time I have agreed with you now.

If you are suggesting that these people, because they are no longer gay in the eyes of God, can serve as ministers, then you disagree with most of the posters in this thread, who are continuing to assert that these people cannot be ministers.

[~candice~]

by the way, maybe this will help... i hope...

when i say delivered from the bondage of homosexuality, that doesn't mean the person will never have a homosexual thought again, or will never be tempted again. it means they are not a slave to their sin, because they have become a servant of Christ.

I heartily agree .

[Guest LadyC]

actually, let me retract something i said, or at least implied. a person who still struggles daily with his urges has not yet learned quite how to take every thought captive to Christ. they can still be saved, and they should still not identify themselves as gay, but if i implied it's ok for them to be in ministry, it's not.

likewise, number 2 in that list, that person, if they are still identifying themselves as gay, should also not serve in ministry.

the key is how they identify themselves. not just to the world, but to themselves before God.