WN: Lutherans to Vote on Sexually Active Gay Clergy - Washington Post

[~candice~]

So just to be clear here Shiloh, you are saying that not only is homosexual activity a sin but even feeling homosexual desire is?

The Bible teaches that sin begins in the heart. The desire to sin is just as sinful as committing the act. Lusting after a married woman is just as sinful as if you had carried the act out in the flesh.

The Bible makes no distinction between the two, really. Homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God and therefore, it is sin to desire the opposite sex as it is to carry out the desire.

According to the Bible, not only should we not carry out sin, but there should not be anything in our heart to prompt it in the first place. So yes, having the feelings and the orientation is as sinful as acting on them.

There is no distinction between desire or lust and sin itself... but there is a distinction between attraction and desire. Attraction is a temptation, a thought that you really can't control. When you dwell on that thought and allow it to take root, it becomes a desire. That is sin. If all "feelings" or thoughts that lead to sin are sinful themselves, then it can't be true that God provides a way of escape.

Did you read my post? Did you agree?

[PhoenixJLD]

this kind of goes back to labels, doesn't it? phoenix, are you a new creation in Christ or are you a homosexual? you can't be both. you can NOT wear both labels. if you are a new creature in Christ, then the homosexual label needs to be thrown in the garbage heap and never be put on again. that is the very first step to letting go, and letting God. in other words, it's the first step to taking every thought captive to Christ.

now.... shiloh is right. homosexual DESIRE is a sin. do you still have DESIRES? or do you simply have an attraction that you have to daily submit to Christ so that it does not become a desire? because as i have been reading your posts, i get the impression that you feel attractions but no desire to act upon it. maybe i'm wrong on that. please clarify.

and if my impression is correct, then again, throw out the gay label you're wearing. as a christian, you can count on satan always throwing temptation in your path, EVEN IF you are not putting yourself in the path of temptation. it is not a sin to face temptation, because Jesus was sinless, and even He faced temptation. it is a sin to dwell on that temptation and entertain thoughts that center on that temptation and it is a sin to act upon those thoughts.

now, why would God not have delivered you thus far? well, a few things come to mind. first of all, you're still wearing that gay label. get rid of it. as long as you're holding on to that, you will not be delivered. secondly, as shiloh pointed out, there may be OTHER areas of your life that you have not called into submission and obedience to God, and those may be hindering you from deliverance.

and my final thought is, if you are NOT a homosexual, but just a christian whose achille's heel happens to be an abnormal attraction, then perhaps this is not something you need deliverance from. God never promised to deliver us from every temptation. He promised to deliver us from bondage.

Good points. Your impression is right, LadyC, so maybe thinking of myself as homosexual is part of the problem - I just assumed that with feeling attraction toward the same sex, and nothing toward the opposite sex, the label had to come along although I hate the thought of it. I have no desire ever to act on my attractions.

Your last paragraph is what I've been trying to argue for here.

[PhoenixJLD]

Did you read my post? Did you agree?

Yes and yes.

[Guest LadyC]

andy, the only way i know to answer your question is this....

i'm no longer in bondage to an addiction to nicotine. but i still face the temptation every day. i will probably always face that temptation. but i'm no longer a slave to the addiction.

[Guest LadyC]

yep, phoenix, i'd say that's definitely part of the problem. so not only were you labeling yourself, you were also placing yourself under condemnation.

[~candice~]

this kind of goes back to labels, doesn't it? phoenix, are ....

and my final thought is, if you are NOT a homosexual, but just a christian whose achille's heel happens to be an abnormal attraction, then perhaps this is not something you need deliverance from. God never promised to deliver us from every temptation. He promised to deliver us from bondage.

Good points. Your impression is right, LadyC, so maybe thinking of myself as homosexual is part of the problem - I just assumed that with feeling attraction toward the same sex, and nothing toward the opposite sex, the label had to come along although I hate the thought of it. I have no desire ever to act on my attractions.

Your last paragraph is what I've been trying to argue for here.

Don't wear the gay tag anymore . I think the last paragraph is what I have been arguing too. What is the difference between bondage and temptation, anyone?

Did you read my post? Did you agree?

Yes and yes.

[~candice~]

andy, the only way i know to answer your question is this....

i'm no longer in bondage to an addiction to nicotine. but i still face the temptation every day. i will probably always face that temptation. but i'm no longer a slave to the addiction.

This is exactly what I have been trying to say, amidst much blood and tears. Can these people minister?

[Guest LadyC]

andy, the only way i know to answer your question is this....

i'm no longer in bondage to an addiction to nicotine. but i still face the temptation every day. i will probably always face that temptation. but i'm no longer a slave to the addiction.

This is exactly what I have been trying to say, amidst much blood and tears. Can these people minister?

as a church pastor? as far as i understand, yes. but i'm really not that well studied on the qualifications one must have as a pastor, so i can't swear that my assumption is correct.

[~candice~]

andy, the only way i know to answer your question is this....

i'm no longer in bondage to an addiction to nicotine. but i still face the temptation every day. i will probably always face that temptation. but i'm no longer a slave to the addiction.

This is exactly what I have been trying to say, amidst much blood and tears. Can these people minister?

as a church pastor? as far as i understand, yes. but i'm really not that well studied on the qualifications one must have as a pastor, so i can't swear that my assumption is correct.

I think we finally understand each other . It might be on a case by case basis, but my understanding is that these people are walking in a manner consistent to what is written in 1 Tim and Titus about the requirements to be a pastor.

[Guest LadyC]

well i'm glad we finally found a way to stop the wheel from spinning, last night we were both dizzy from the circles we were going in!