The Westminister confession of faith

[JCISGD]

I do not have or intend to discuss here the complete confession or the merits/demerits of the Presbertarian denomination as a whole, but to correct the false charge against Finney for rejecting it, even while a minister submitted unto them where this did not conflict with obedience to God.

Here is the part in question, " No man is able, either by himself, or by ANY GRACE recieved in this life, perfectly to keep the commandments of God; but doth daily break them in thought, word, and deed."

Really? even though Christ himself commands us to be holy as our Father in heaven, and even commanded the lowly adulterous to "go and sin NO more", even if God should provide us the same grace that raised Christ from the grave, we will and must sin?

Alot of people confuse unwanted thoughts and temptations with actual sin and therefore falsely think it impossible, but these things are not sin unless desired or acted on. Jesus was tempted in all things but sinned not.

I have to go to work, back later to answer objections.

[BigBert]

Interesting and worthy question. I think it's important in such a subject--if we're to really talk about being PERFECT, assuming that's the call here, we need to not only think about sins of commission--those we actively do to break God's precepts, but also those of omission--things we don't do that Christ would have done daily.

Here are a couple of scriptures that illustrate (there may be more, but these are the two I recently came across):

Romans 14:23 says, "For whatsoever is not of faith is sin." That seems to indicate that anything we do that we don't possess faith as being clearly OK is a sin, going beyond, say, the ten commandments. For those especially with acutely sensitive consciences (like myself), that can create unbelievable tension and a total lack of peace. I speak from experience there, and it's inevitably destructive to our walk (certainly was mine).

James 4:17 says, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." --Here we have the flip-side, the sins of "omission," where on some level (extremely clear or a modest beckoning) we fail to act where we know we should. Perhaps going across the street to talk to that troubled soul but we instead get in a hurry to do our own thing. Or maybe it's witnessing to someone who appears spiritually lost but for some reason we just don't quite do it.

I don't know about you, but if we're truly going to stay sound across the board, then I think an awful lot of us fall short a number of times daily, much less over the course of a lifetime, even if we generally do a "very good" job of walking in the Spirit.

It's a very long process, I believe; a Christ-like level that we don't really attain in full deed and spirit until we meet the bridegroom and are in His presence.

Edited August 31, 2009 by BigBert

[Jeremiah Joel]

The work of righteousness is of course the work of God. We are to be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect. Christ came to bless us in turning away everyone of you from his iniquity (Ac 3:26). It is the work of God that sin is taken out of our lives. It is and can only be the work of God.

The law came which put us in sin, for without the law is no transgression. We know sin by the law, and the law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. All the work of God.

If a person belives that they cannot be without sin, most likely they have heard that from a preacher. What then is the sin of the preacher that preaches that?...... there can be some very vile sins in this world!! It is not just about thoughts... but actual sin.

Again this freedom from sin is the work of God. It is not about being better than anyone, or anything like that. It is just the work of God. It is what Christ came to do, us taking on the image of Christ..... Christ in us the hope of glory.

Jeremiah

[JCISGD]

BB this is the can of worms i spoke of in the other thread, and i have unintentionally opened it as i did not think through the implications of my topic.

I was forgetting that many agree with that part of the Westminister Confession, and while i meant to show that it was right for Finney to reject it, i first have to convince of the error itself.

Omission does not cover unkown obligation only that which we know beyond doubt that we should do. It cannot expect i help my neighbour untill i see his need nor if my health or abilities do not allow it.

Let us therefore look into it the possibilty of obeying God completly and perfectly.

Is it possible to obey our earthly father completly in all reasonable commands as long as they do not conlict with Gods.

Further than this in OT times the love, servitude and loyalty shown by Joeseph as a slave and then 2nd in charge to Pharoah is shown to be perfect does it not? and that of Ruth to Naiomi is also extroidinary and yet possible.

David as a shepherd boy, risked his life for sheep worth on todays market maybe $100 or so, simply out of obedience and loyalty to his father. In his early days leading up to the throne it is evident he did not sin in thought or deed, even though under sore trial and wrongful persuit of his life by king Saul.

Which of the ten commandments summed up in two by Jesus, as the whole of the law are impossible to obey. And if any are, was it just and holy for God to give them upon threat of punishment for disobedience.

Finally the command given carries with it the assurance of ability to keep it, or else God is a wicked tyrannt and Jesus command to be perfect as our father in heaven is also wrongfully given.

One qualification is needed here, we are never commanded be holy/perfect in the same quantity as God, only in the quality of holiness. God is infinitley holy and we will only ever be finitely holy. We are not asked to do anything beyond our reasonable ability, and each person has different levels of ability and therefore each has only to do what they can and nothing more, yet nothing less either.

If then any will agree that it is aleast possible to obey God fully, then we also as Finney should reject that part of the WC, yet not disqualify ourselves from service among any Presbertarian church or void our usefulness in the Kingdom.

[JCISGD]

The work of righteousness is of course the work of God. We are to be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect. Christ came to bless us in turning away everyone of you from his iniquity (Ac 3:26). It is the work of God that sin is taken out of our lives. It is and can only be the work of God.

The law came which put us in sin, for without the law is no transgression. We know sin by the law, and the law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. All the work of God.

If a person belives that they cannot be without sin, most likely they have heard that from a preacher. What then is the sin of the preacher that preaches that?...... there can be some very vile sins in this world!! It is not just about thoughts... but actual sin.

Again this freedom from sin is the work of God. It is not about being better than anyone, or anything like that. It is just the work of God. It is what Christ came to do, us taking on the image of Christ..... Christ in us the hope of glory.

Jeremiah

Hi Jeremiah, i agree fully with the first sentence, but am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with the Westminister Confession, that we cannot be perfect reguardless of the Grace/Work of God in our lives?

[BigBert]

BB this is the can of worms i spoke of in the other thread, and i have unintentionally opened it as i did not think through the implications of my topic.

I was forgetting that many agree with that part of the Westminister Confession, and while i meant to show that it was right for Finney to reject it, i first have to convince of the error itself.

Omission does not cover unkown obligation only that which we know beyond doubt that we should do. It cannot expect i help my neighbour untill i see his need nor if my health or abilities do not allow it.

Let us therefore look into it the possibilty of obeying God completly and perfectly.

Is it possible to obey our earthly father completly in all reasonable commands as long as they do not conlict with Gods.

Further than this in OT times the love, servitude and loyalty shown by Joeseph as a slave and then 2nd in charge to Pharoah is shown to be perfect does it not? and that of Ruth to Naiomi is also extroidinary and yet possible.

David as a shepherd boy, risked his life for sheep worth on todays market maybe $100 or so, simply out of obedience and loyalty to his father. In his early days leading up to the throne it is evident he did not sin in thought or deed, even though under sore trial and wrongful persuit of his life by king Saul.

Which of the ten commandments summed up in two by Jesus, as the whole of the law are impossible to obey. And if any are, was it just and holy for God to give them upon threat of punishment for disobedience.

Finally the command given carries with it the assurance of ability to keep it, or else God is a wicked tyrannt and Jesus command to be perfect as our father in heaven is also wrongfully given.

One qualification is needed here, we are never commanded be holy/perfect in the same quantity as God, only in the quality of holiness. God is infinitley holy and we will only ever be finitely holy. We are not asked to do anything beyond our reasonable ability, and each person has different levels of ability and therefore each has only to do what they can and nothing more, yet nothing less either.

If then any will agree that it is aleast possible to obey God fully, then we also as Finney should reject that part of the WC, yet not disqualify ourselves from service among any Presbertarian church or void our usefulness in the Kingdom.

I appreciate the spirit of what you're saying. There are many qualifiers you present here, which to me kind of makes the initial question hard to answer in the vein you seem to be asking. God's standards have always been perfect, with Jesus further emphasizing this when discussing the thoughts from the heart in addition to the evident deeds. He did so in order to show us our own futility in trying to manage it, leading us to the mandatory requirement of the Cross.

Not sure why you're bringing up OT figures, who--like everyone else, as Jesus and Paul repeatedly noted in various ways--were not perfect in their lives, and far from it when all is considered. For "even our righteousness is of filthy rags" compared to God. It's all relative, and we naturally fall short, as I'm sure you'd agree.

Perhaps I don't understand the standard you're conveying, since real perfection (ie like Jesus) surely must include failing to do that which Christ would do. I gave a couple of examples, attempting to illustrate situations that, even in our possessing the Holy Spirit, we're prone to failure toward in areas that include not meeting legitimate needs of our fellow man/woman.

I'm just sayin'.....(grin)

[EricH]

I do not have or intend to discuss here the complete confession or the merits/demerits of the Presbertarian denomination as a whole, but to correct the false charge against Finney for rejecting it, even while a minister submitted unto them where this did not conflict with obedience to God.

Here is the part in question, " No man is able, either by himself, or by ANY GRACE recieved in this life, perfectly to keep the commandments of God; but doth daily break them in thought, word, and deed."

Really? even though Christ himself commands us to be holy as our Father in heaven, and even commanded the lowly adulterous to "go and sin NO more", even if God should provide us the same grace that raised Christ from the grave, we will and must sin?

Alot of people confuse unwanted thoughts and temptations with actual sin and therefore falsely think it impossible, but these things are not sin unless desired or acted on. Jesus was tempted in all things but sinned not.

I have to go to work, back later to answer objections.

That is basically a restatement of the doctrine of total depravity

[JCISGD]

I do not have or intend to discuss here the complete confession or the merits/demerits of the Presbertarian denomination as a whole, but to correct the false charge against Finney for rejecting it, even while a minister submitted unto them where this did not conflict with obedience to God.

Here is the part in question, " No man is able, either by himself, or by ANY GRACE recieved in this life, perfectly to keep the commandments of God; but doth daily break them in thought, word, and deed."

Really? even though Christ himself commands us to be holy as our Father in heaven, and even commanded the lowly adulterous to "go and sin NO more", even if God should provide us the same grace that raised Christ from the grave, we will and must sin?

Alot of people confuse unwanted thoughts and temptations with actual sin and therefore falsely think it impossible, but these things are not sin unless desired or acted on. Jesus was tempted in all things but sinned not.

I have to go to work, back later to answer objections.

That is basically a restatement of the doctrine of total depravity

Yes agreed, but man is only totally depraved because he is unwillingto obey, and not because he is unable, lest we be guilty of charging God with the tyranny of giving us a nature that disables us to obey, and then punishes us eternally for not obeying, absurd.

All men are unwilling to obey God without His grace, but He has provided His grace and so we have no excuse.

The contention with the W.C is that it denies that even with Gods grace man cannot obey God, this too is absurd and charges God with inability to do that which He is able. "Now to Him who is ABLE to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the POWER that works in us"Eph 3:20,

" And God is ABLE to make GRACE abound toward you, that you, having ALL sufficiency in ALL things, may have abundance for every good work" 2 Cor 9:8,

"Therefore He is also ABLE to save to the UTTERMOST those who come to God through Him, since He lives to make intercession for them" Heb 7:25, " Now to Him who is ABLE to KEEP you from stumbling,and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy", also Rom 16:25, 1 Cor 10:13, Phil 3:21 and Heb 2:18.

The language above clearly states God can by His grace make us perfect, but the language in the W.C denies this. Who is correct then?

We are not obligated to prove who has been perfected, but that infact in opposition to the claims in the W.C God says He can perfect us by His grace.

[Jeremiah Joel]

The work of righteousness is of course the work of God. We are to be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect. Christ came to bless us in turning away everyone of you from his iniquity (Ac 3:26). It is the work of God that sin is taken out of our lives. It is and can only be the work of God.

The law came which put us in sin, for without the law is no transgression. We know sin by the law, and the law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. All the work of God.

If a person belives that they cannot be without sin, most likely they have heard that from a preacher. What then is the sin of the preacher that preaches that?...... there can be some very vile sins in this world!! It is not just about thoughts... but actual sin.

Again this freedom from sin is the work of God. It is not about being better than anyone, or anything like that. It is just the work of God. It is what Christ came to do, us taking on the image of Christ..... Christ in us the hope of glory.

Jeremiah

Hi Jeremiah, i agree fully with the first sentence, but am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with the Westminister Confession, that we cannot be perfect reguardless of the Grace/Work of God in our lives?

I believe that the work of grace takes us out of sin completely. That the work of grace makes us perfect. I preach that God's work stops sin in our lives. If there be anything within me that is sin, that I am unaware of, God will revel it and take it out of me completely. So then we walk perfect by the grace of God, and on in perfection.

Jesus of Nazareth was known as the Christ (anointed one) because of the obvious work of God. Now it is to be Christ in us the hope of glory!

The scriptures say this in I Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. How did Christ walk? It says this in I Pet 2:21-22 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

So then it is not just about a man 2,000 or so years ago called the Christ. It is now Christ is us! To be perfect by the work of the grace of God, and faith (works) in that grace. As the scripture also says in Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:. And then of course in James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

There are things within the Word of God that speak to the elect, that tell them what they must do...Not the law of sin and death...But the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

I hope that that answers your question.

Jeremiah

Edited September 1, 2009 by Jeremiah Joel

[JCISGD]

The work of righteousness is of course the work of God. We are to be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect. Christ came to bless us in turning away everyone of you from his iniquity (Ac 3:26). It is the work of God that sin is taken out of our lives. It is and can only be the work of God.

The law came which put us in sin, for without the law is no transgression. We know sin by the law, and the law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. All the work of God.

If a person belives that they cannot be without sin, most likely they have heard that from a preacher. What then is the sin of the preacher that preaches that?...... there can be some very vile sins in this world!! It is not just about thoughts... but actual sin.

Again this freedom from sin is the work of God. It is not about being better than anyone, or anything like that. It is just the work of God. It is what Christ came to do, us taking on the image of Christ..... Christ in us the hope of glory.

I agree fully with this post, so i take it you are against that part of the Westminister Confession also?

Jeremiah

Hi Jeremiah, i agree fully with the first sentence, but am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with the Westminister Confession, that we cannot be perfect reguardless of the Grace/Work of God in our lives?

Yes i fully agree, so i can take it that you disagree with that part of the Westminister Confession that says no matter how much grace abounds no man can stop sinning?

To be clear i disagree with that part of it.

I believe that the work of grace takes us out of sin completely. That the work of grace makes us perfect. I preach that God's work stops sin in our lives. If there be anything within me that is sin, that I am unaware of, God will revel it and take it out of me completely. So then we walk perfect by the grace of God, and on in perfection.

Jesus of Nazareth was known as the Christ (anointed one) because of the obvious work of God. Now it is to be Christ in us the hope of glory!

The scriptures say this in I Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. How did Christ walk? It says this in I Pet 2:21-22 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

So then it is not just about a man 2,000 or so years ago called the Christ. It is now Christ is us! To be perfect by the work of the grace of God, and faith (works) in that grace. As the scripture also says in Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:. And then of course in James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

There are things within the Word of God that speak to the elect, that tell them what they must do...Not the law of sin and death...But the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

I hope that that answers your question.

Jeremiah