Under the alter

[Karen C.]

(Oops on the sp Altar...not alter...) Okie...

Question reguarding judgement on "those who dwell on earth".

Rev 6:9-11

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood

on them that dwell on the earth?

[munari]

Those people under the altar are the martyrs who died for Christ. They are asking how long do they have to wait until God avenges their deaths and punish those who are to be judged. They are asking how much longer before the final judgement. Christ responds bascially that it is going to be a little bit longer, that not all of the martyrs have been martyred yet. They are asking for the judgement of those who do not believe and who are killing those who do.

[Adstar]

The Ancient Of Days is waiting for the numbers of those who follow him to reach a determined number (which will be achieved during the tribulation) before he carries out his wrath one those who persecuted his people on earth.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

Ops sorry that should have read

The Ancient Of Days is waiting for the numbers of those who follow who die as martyers for their faith in him to reach a determined number (which will be achieved during the tribulation) before he carries out his wrath one those who persecuted his people on earth.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Karen C.]

before he carries out his wrath on those who persecuted on earthhis people

!on those! .....my question being...All those under the altar have been martryd though out history of the Church, so WHY would they be crying for vengence on folks living in that PRESENT time?

Wouldn't it be more logical that the vengence they are asking for is against satan and his principalities and powers, demons and all that he has used to afflect mankind, God's creation???

Just a thought...

In Christ, Karen

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

By the way, have you read the book of Enoch?

[Guest shadow2b]

before he carries out his wrath on those who persecuted on earthhis people

!on those! .....my question being...All those under the altar have been martryd though out history of the Church, so WHY would they be crying for vengence on folks living in that PRESENT time?

Wouldn't it be more logical that the vengence they are asking for is against satan and his principalities and powers, demons and all that he has used to afflect mankind, God's creation???

Just a thought...

In Christ, Karen

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

By the way, have you read the book of Enoch?

hellllllll--ooooo  !!  revelations is real easy to understand if you don't spititualize those things that arenot meant to be..

usually and in this case what is happening on earth and who is doing what to who is the relevent factor.. the wicked[MEN]

influenced by demons yet it is called FREEWILL CHOICE both man & demons...the wicked ...the wicked have NOT been sooooooo EVIL nor have they comitted such EVIL ACTS since

just before the flood...what is the final condition of the wicked

that so distresses GOD that IT REPENTETH GOD that HE had created man ???? genesis 6: vs.5 thru 13--

   hope i didn't intrude too much & hope this might be of some help...

                                        GOD--BLESS

                                           shadow2b

[RCruise]

"under the altar" is a specific place of holding in the protection of God.  Read up from Exodus on about the "altar" and how God instructed it to done and, how Holy it was that it should not be formed with hands or approached vicariously so as to pollute it.  But, also study the "Ark of the Covenant" for that is God's seat of judgement upon the earth within the Holy of Holies.  Look at what was placed inside, preserved under the seat with two cheribums stretching their wings over the lid toward each other.

God had a plan and a reason for everything He instructed to be built and how it was to be built and, how and who it was to approach it.  These physical models with real consequences for disobedience in any fashion or action are and have spiritual significance for today's Christian and spiritual walk.

God Bless.

[Adstar]

Karen C.

"!on those! .....my question being...All those under the altar have been martryd though out history of the Church, so WHY would they be crying for vengence on folks living in that PRESENT time?"

Karen all Christians are brothers in Christ. It doesn't matter when they lived, If you saw someone harming your brother/sister unjustly would you not call for vengeance from The Ancient Of Days? They where not only calling for vengeance for themselves but also for their brothers/sisters.

"Wouldn't it be more logical that the vengence they are asking for is against satan and his principalities and powers, demons and all that he has used to afflect mankind, God's creation???"

Do you know that satan is working thought his agents on the earth and at the end of days will be cast out of heaven and be on the earth when these great persecutions will climax. So they are asking for vengeance against satan and his angles and principles and all those that follow him.

"By the way, have you read the book of Enoch?"

Please elaborate Karen are you trying to covey something about the title "The Ancient Of Days"

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Karen C.]

Adstar~

"Vengence is mine saith the Lord". No where does Jesus teach us to cry for any kind of vengence on humans.

Deliverance, blessings, these are the things we ask for those who oppress us~even kill us. What did Jesus say on the cross? "Forgive them for they know NOT what they do". These were demon inspired people who killed him.

Yes, I know of demonic influences and the ability to be controled by satanic forces. But I hope those under the altar weren't asking for vengence to be taken out on me because I was under demonic strongholds??? So your answer doesn't make sense to me.

But if you look at the spirits of those demons in reference to their origins, it would make sense.

2 Peter 2:10-15

10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

cursed children: the only place I have found to reference "cursed children" is the nephilim spirits that in the book of Enoch are the demon spirits we contend with today. That is the curse of the offspring of the fallen angels and women.

Jude 10-15

10But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him

From Enoch:

And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the 8 Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted 9 through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.' And to Gabriel said the Lord: 'Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in 10 battle: for length of days shall they not have. And no request that they (i.e. their fathers) make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life, and 11 that each one of them will live five hundred years.' And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves 12 with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is 13 for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and 14 to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all 15 generations. And destroy all the spirits of the reprobate and the children of the Watchers, because 16 they have wronged mankind.

. But you were formerly 7 spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling. 8 And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon 9 the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; 10 they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless 12 hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.

This is to "whom" we will cry out vengence on... not men.

In Christ, Karen

[Karen C.]

Adster~

I apoligize... I see we do agree on the "who".

I've always looked at that Scripture knowing that if we are to bless and curse not, it must be refering to spiritual beings and not humans.