just a question

[mizzdy]

Something that I find really interesting is in Gen. 5:3 where it says that Adam lived 130 years and had begot a son in his own likeness, something that was not said about Cain or Abel. Were Cain and Abel born in the garden, were they in the likeness of God also? Its interesting to think about.

No, only Adam and Eve were made in the likeness of God. The bible says that Adam had a son in his own image (Adam's image), not in God's image. Sin has been passed on to Adam's offspring .

Scripture only tells us that Seth was in the likeness of Adam, nothing about Cain or Abel, just thought it was an interesting statment. I have also wondered why God told Eve her birthpangs would multiply sorrow and conception and in pain you will forth children its as if she already knew what God meant. Just musing through some thoughts we all have from time to time.

God told Eve that in Gen 3, well before any offspring arrived....

Gen 3 (NASB)

16To the woman He said,

"I will greatly multiply

Your pain in childbirth,

In pain you will bring forth children;

Yet your desire will be for your husband,

And he will rule over you."

I don't see how that means that Even must have already known what God meant?

This is the third time in 24 hours I have heard the suggestion that either God created more humans than just Adam and Eve in His image, or that there were offspring of Adam and Eve before the fall. Is there some reasoning for this kind of speculation? It plays with the doctrine of original sin being passed down from Adam, and is dangerous.

Andy,

I never said God created Cain and Abel nor did I say they were born before they left the garden, I was thinking out loud, or actually I said musing through not that I believed it, not trying to convince anyone of anything. I pointed out that scripture says that Seth was in the image of Adam thats all. So my being some danger or 'teaching' something dangerous shouldn't worry you or anyone else. Lets ask this question ok and its just for interest and I am not teaching anything, when God told Eve she would experience something it leads to the possiblity she had some kind of knowledge of what was being talked about. Was it because she saw animals being born? very well could have been. So did the animals not suffer in childbirth before the fall and now are part of that curse also.

[mizzdy]

Something that I find really interesting is in Gen. 5:3 where it says that Adam lived 130 years and had begot a son in his own likeness, something that was not said about Cain or Abel. Were Cain and Abel born in the garden, were they in the likeness of God also? Its interesting to think about.

We discussed this when our guests from Israel were in. Adam was made in God's image, but Adam's children were in Adam's image. While "image" does have the "looks like" meaning behind it, we also know that like God, Adam was created without sin. Some believe he and Eve lived or dwelled in light, a reflection of the perfect God who created them. But when they sinned, the light went out, and they could see that they were naked. Adam's children then, would have been born into sin, born with the clock ticking until their death, and dwelling for all intents and purposes in darkness, rather than light. When we are restored, we will again dwell while reflecting the light of God. (some believe)

Peace.

Ken

Ken,

I do understand what image is and understand death is upon us all because of what they did. I found the verse interesting and was musing about it guess I won't be doing that here anymore.

[Guest Ken Rank]

Ken,

I do understand what image is and understand death is upon us all because of what they did. I found the verse interesting and was musing about it guess I won't be doing that here anymore.

Mizzdy, some folks for whatever reason (fear of the unknown?) will not go outside their comfort zone to consider anything new. This has always puzzled me because we are commanded to "prove all things holding fast to that which is true." When we get to the point where we think we know everything, that we as individuals, or our pastors, or our denominations, has some sort of "lock" on the truth, we can't prove ANYTHING. Our learning is over and I guess at that point we have become God knowing all there is!

I enjoyed you thinking out loud. When I create new tee shirts for my business, I get together with a few friends and we just say whatever idea comes to mind out loud. No fear of being ridiculed, because even a not-so-good idea might cause a tumbler to fall in place in the brain and cause a good idea to come out of it.

We should, as BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN MESSIAH, be able to share thoughts without fear that some other "brother" is going to ridicule you over it. That attitude STINKS and does not reflect the God we serve!! So think out loud sis and ignore the ignorant... maybe the thought might be right, maybe not... but that's how God's people reason through scripture in order to prove all things.

In His love,

Ken

[~candice~]

Something that I find really interesting is in Gen. 5:3 where it says that Adam lived 130 years and had begot a son in his own likeness, something that was not said about Cain or Abel. Were Cain and Abel born in the garden, were they in the likeness of God also? Its interesting to think about.

No, only Adam and Eve were made in the likeness of God. The bible says that Adam had a son in his own image (Adam's image), not in God's image. Sin has been passed on to Adam's offspring .

Scripture only tells us that Seth was in the likeness of Adam, nothing about Cain or Abel, just thought it was an interesting statment. I have also wondered why God told Eve her birthpangs would multiply sorrow and conception and in pain you will forth children its as if she already knew what God meant. Just musing through some thoughts we all have from time to time.

God told Eve that in Gen 3, well before any offspring arrived....

Gen 3 (NASB)

16To the woman He said,

"I will greatly multiply

Your pain in childbirth,

In pain you will bring forth children;

Yet your desire will be for your husband,

And he will rule over you."

I don't see how that means that Even must have already known what God meant?

This is the third time in 24 hours I have heard the suggestion that either God created more humans than just Adam and Eve in His image, or that there were offspring of Adam and Eve before the fall. Is there some reasoning for this kind of speculation? It plays with the doctrine of original sin being passed down from Adam, and is dangerous.

Andy,

I never said God created Cain and Abel nor did I say they were born before they left the garden, I was thinking out loud, or actually I said musing through not that I believed it, not trying to convince anyone of anything. I pointed out that scripture says that Seth was in the image of Adam thats all. So my being some danger or 'teaching' something dangerous shouldn't worry you or anyone else. Lets ask this question ok and its just for interest and I am not teaching anything, when God told Eve she would experience something it leads to the possiblity she had some kind of knowledge of what was being talked about. Was it because she saw animals being born? very well could have been. So did the animals not suffer in childbirth before the fall and now are part of that curse also.

Mizzy, I think outloud all the time too, nothing wrong with it, I was just giving feedback. I disagree with your statement in red. If you read my response again, I was asking you to comment on other people's speculations.

Ken,

I do understand what image is and understand death is upon us all because of what they did. I found the verse interesting and was musing about it guess I won't be doing that here anymore.

Mizzdy, some folks for whatever reason (fear of the unknown?) will not go outside their comfort zone to consider anything new. This has always puzzled me because we are commanded to "prove all things holding fast to that which is true." When we get to the point where we think we know everything, that we as individuals, or our pastors, or our denominations, has some sort of "lock" on the truth, we can't prove ANYTHING. Our learning is over and I guess at that point we have become God knowing all there is!

I enjoyed you thinking out loud. When I create new tee shirts for my business, I get together with a few friends and we just say whatever idea comes to mind out loud. No fear of being ridiculed, because even a not-so-good idea might cause a tumbler to fall in place in the brain and cause a good idea to come out of it.

We should, as BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN MESSIAH, be able to share thoughts without fear that some other "brother" is going to ridicule you over it. That attitude STINKS and does not reflect the God we serve!! So think out loud sis and ignore the ignorant... maybe the thought might be right, maybe not... but that's how God's people reason through scripture in order to prove all things.

In His love,

Ken

I was not ridiculing, nor am I ignorant. Your post is quite offensive.

[~candice~]

Ken,

I do understand what image is and understand death is upon us all because of what they did. I found the verse interesting and was musing about it guess I won't be doing that here anymore.

I think you have to be a little less sensitive. Please reread the posts again. I disagreed with you, but I didn't mock or harass or ridicule, nor did I cast stones or call names. It was all very civil. If you want to muse about things that aren't clear in the Word, you have to accept that others will disagree with you .

[Guest Ken Rank]

I was not ridiculing, nor am I ignorant. Your post is quite offensive.

Andy, if you were offended at something I said, well, I apologize... AND, you shouldn't be. I didn't even read your post to Mizzdy until NOW. I did not use your name, didn't refer to you.... I said "some folks." I was responding to Mizzdy's frustration and nothing you said.

Peace.

Ken

Edited September 30, 2009 by Ken Rank

[~candice~]

No reason for the sad face emoticon Andy. Sometimes as Christians we look at scripture and see OT bondage and NT grace. Simply put, that is not a good take of scripture. What did the Israelites to to "earn" favor (which is translated as grace in the NT) while in Egypt? Nothing, yet God performed an act of grace or favor and delivered them from Egypt. Joseph's life is nothing but a story about repeated acts of grace. Being thrown in the pit by his brothers was an act of grace! Look at his life from then on... cutting to the chase of it, had he not been thrown into the pit, he would not have been bought by slave traders. Had he not been bought by slave traders he would not have been sold to Potifer. Had Potifer's wife not lied, Joseph wouldn't have been thrown in jail. Had Joseph not been thrown in jail, he would not have correctly interpreted the dreams of his cell mates. Had he not interpretated the dreams of his cell mates, Pharaoh would not have heard of his ability and not called on him to interpret his own dreams. And if that had not happened, Joseph would not have been made 2nd in command, saved Egypt... and the very family he was estranged from. The 12 tribes of Judah, which play a prophetic roll TODAY... were saved because God's grace allowed Joseph to be thrown into a pit in the first place!

Ok, I digress... I just love sharing that. What was the the first act of grace in the bible? Saving Isaac, delivering the Isrealites, Joseph's life? How about kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden? Had they remained they would have died in the garden with no chance of redemption. But because they were sent out, had offspring, through that line eventually would come a Messiah would would carve a path for us ALL, Adam through you, to follow. The plan of redemption began when God banished Adam and Eve from the garden. So the first act of grace is seen there.

Peace.

Ken

Umm... OK.

Grace is lovely, but it came at a price, the death on the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. Sin is sad, the price paid for it is both horrific and beautiful at the same time. I think that we can mourn the sin, and the cost of redeeming us, while at the same time be joyful and in awe at the beauty of our Redeemer.

The picture we see is now complete, man having reconciliation with God, but the element of sin considered on it's own is still terrible. So I stand by my sad face and you are welcome to your opinion . If you think that is a bad take on scripture, I will console myself over a large cup of coffee and apple tea cake mmmmm (drooling over my impending breakfast).

I think all too often we blame Satan for our sin and temptation, when infact, it is usually just us!

You're right, but it is clear there was outside influence in this case. Still, Adam and Eve made their choice, the sin is on them just as it is us when we sin. The devil does not make us do it, we choose to transgress.

Satan didn't shove that apple down Adam & Eve's throat. He tempted them, but they used their own free will to take the first bite. Look what Adam and Eve said when God confronted them about their sin...

Apple? Does it say apple?

Adam blames Eve. Eve blames Satan. None of them say "I did it, I sinned, I take the blame!".

Respectfully, I don't agree on this point. I rather see Adam as simply telling the truth.

Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

What are the facts? The command was given to Adam, Eve ate. Then Adam ate. So when Adam says the woman ate and "I did eat," he was simply telling the truth. IMO

Peace.

Ken

No, it doesn't say apple .

As for Adam blaming Eve, have a look at the red part. The extremely dodgy paraphrase by ~andy~ reads something like this...

Dear God, don't blame me, blame the woman! The woman did it!!! You can't blame me anyway, You are the one who gave me the woman in the first place. Why did you give me the woman if You knew she was going to do this to me! Besides, she handed me the fruit. What was I supposed to do? I just ate it.

Adam DID eat the fruit, and answered God's direct question "Have you eaten of the tree?" by first pointing his finger at the woman, and then indirectly at God (You gave me the woman!), before finally admitting that he ate the fruit. Adam wasn't simply telling the truth, it was the truth embellished with finger pointing.

What would the appropriate response be if God asked you a direct question like that? I ATE THE FRUIT. A bit like when we come to salvation, we must first admit that WE are sinners. Dear God, I ATE THE FRUIT!

Blessings,

Andy

[Guest Ken Rank]

Yes Andy, grace came at a price.... but as I shared, "grace" was around long before Yehoshua was manifested in the flesh. Revelation says there was a lamb slain "from the foundation of the world." A sacrifice before there was a sin. God knew we would fall, and God made a way back to him before we even needed a way back to him. Grace is from the beginning.

Yes, Adam said Eve ate first, and Eve did eat first. I don't see an issue. We are not fallen because of Eve, the command not to eat was given to Adam, the authority of his house. We have fallen because Adam sinned, not because Eve did.

Gotta run... got kids to pick up.

Peace.

Ken

[Guest Ken Rank]

And Andy, what was the "uhmm, ok?" I thought sharing a perspective showing how grace was around in the OT (it is actually mentioned MORE times in the OT than the NT) would be worthwhile for some. Should I avoid any discussion with you from now on? It seems we have gotten off on the wrong foot!

Peace.

Ken

[mizzdy]

Ken,

I do understand what image is and understand death is upon us all because of what they did. I found the verse interesting and was musing about it guess I won't be doing that here anymore.

I think you have to be a little less sensitive. Please reread the posts again. I disagreed with you, but I didn't mock or harass or ridicule, nor did I cast stones or call names. It was all very civil. If you want to muse about things that aren't clear in the Word, you have to accept that others will disagree with you .

Believe me Andy I have a very thick skin and have read your posts. I was not agreeing or disagreeing nor was I mocking, harassing, or ridiculing you and I was not throwing stones or calling names where do you get the idea I was? I have been on this board for awhile now and belong to several other boards as well so I am not new to others disagreeing/agreeing and have no problem with that at all, we are to reason things together, iron sharpens iron, and that includes things that are not completely clear and we can also put forth opinions and thoughts when issues are not clearly defined in scripture. Thats what boards like this are for, aren't they? I have seen it time and time again even in your own posts. When I posted to Ken as to not musing anymore I am sorry you felt I was somehow harrassing, mocking, ridiculing, casting stones or even calling you names, I assure you I was not doing so yet I do apologize if you were offended in any way.