just a question

[~candice~]

~andy~'

My suspicion (only suspicion, not biblical fact) is that God introduced the serpent into the Garden to bring about the fall of man, fully knowing the consequences and implication, and allowed the exercise of man's free will in the presence of temptation to result in the fall.

And doesn't the Bible say that God does not tempt? - James 1 v 13: Let no one say when he is tempted. "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. NKJV

We don't see anywhere in Genesis prior to the Fall that Adam and Eve were tempted to eat of the fruit. Only when satan entered the scene do we see temptation.

God didn't tempt. The source of the temptation was the serpent! God made all things, and orchestrates all things, so we cannot claim that the serpent entered the garden except without the permission of God. God is sovereign over all, even the serpent.

Obviously the free will inherent in Adam and Eve was not perfect, or they would have been able to stand up against the schemes of the serpent.

[Guest HIS girl]

'~andy~'

God didn't tempt. The source of the temptation was the serpent! God made all things, and orchestrates all things, so we cannot claim that the serpent entered the garden except without the permission of God. God is sovereign over all, even the serpent.

Obviously the free will inherent in Adam and Eve was not perfect, or they would have been able to stand up against the schemes of the serpent.

Hmm - dunno about that. When God says in Genesis that He looked at what He made (His Creation-man included) and it was very good, I would tend to agree with that. Genesis 1 v 31a - Then God saw everything that He made and indeed it was very good.

I think you are missing my point of the originator of sin/ability to sin via satan. Not man being the originator. Take satan out of the equation and one is saying that sin originated with man because it sure didn't originate with God.

By God putting satan into the Garden to bring about the Fall of man, is in part God tempting man. (and that's impossible)

God and man had a great relationship prior to the Fall.

Did God need to bring about the Fall in order to bring man "back" to Him?

Hmmm..I know that Christ was the answer to the problems that manifested through the fall...but do I think that God intended Adam from the get go TO sin?

Not sure about that.

Could it have been a different scenario that Adam and Eve didn't sin and weren't tempted by satan and continued living in harmony with God as well as their children? Yes, this could have happened.

Sin was the result of their freewill choice by being tempted by satan and being seduced by the lie.

And our everloving merciful God had steps in place to counteract the disobedience of man - Jesus Christ.

[~candice~]

Hmmm..I know that Christ was the answer to the problems that manifested through the fall...but do I think that God intended Adam from the get go TO sin?

Yes I do!

Where did Satan and the serpent come from, if not somehow created by God? In the beginning, there was God, and everything else is the work of His hands. Additionally, Jesus was to be the propitiation for our sins even before the earth was created. The plan was always for man to fall, and for Jesus to redeem.

Was God powerless to stop the serpent from tempting Adam and Eve, or did God allow it? I believe God allowed it, knowing what the outcome would be. To claim otherwise means God is not all powerful. God allowed the devil to do his work so that Jesus would come and show the world the love that God has for us.

[Guest HIS girl]

'~andy~'

Where did Satan and the serpent come from, if not somehow created by God?

Satan was Lucifer - one of God's angels. He was no longer an angel of God after being kicked out of God's presence thus becoming satan/devil and his followers - demons.

Was God powerless to stop the serpent from tempting Adam and Eve, or did God allow it?

No He wasn't powerless - and that is part of God's love - the allowance of our choices through freewill.

To claim otherwise means God is not all powerful.

I am not claiming God to not be powerful - far from it.

God allowed the devil to do his work so that Jesus would come and show the world the love that God has for us.

Do you see that I'm saying God Adam/Eve had a good relationship prior to the Fall?

It was always in God's mind for man to be united to Him in a sustaining relationship. It was satan/sin that seperated man from God -

It's like in my daily life andy - I can be presented with a situation that his 50 different outcomes - it's my freewill to make one choice - I am not fixed on taking one particular one - I have a choice and with each outcome I may choose from, God has an ending for each one, depending on which one I decide on. Understand?

[Guest HIS girl]

I've gotta go right now andy but I'll check back later -

[~candice~]

Yep, I understand your position, but I take the opposite position in the sovereignty v's free will debate .

Satan was Lucifer - one of God's angels. He was no longer an angel of God after being kicked out of God's presence thus becoming satan/devil and his followers - demons.

When God created Lucifer, do you think God knew that Lucifer would fall, and tempt Adam in the garden? I do. And yet God still created Lucifer, knowing what the outcome and implication would be. God is never taken by surprise! God never has to revert to plan B (sending Jesus to redeem us of our sins) because plan A (living peacefully together in the garden) didn't work out.

From my point of view, nothing occurs that God doesn't either cause or allow, including the fall of Lucifer, the fall of man, and the sacrifice of Christ. Yet within this, man has total and complete free will.

[~candice~]

I've gotta go right now andy but I'll check back later -

No worries

[~candice~]

Eph 1 (NASB)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love

5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

8a which He lavished on us.

1 Peter 1 (NASB)

20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

This is where we need one of our old chatters, BurnForChrist, to come in and explain infralapsarianism and supralapsarianism . But I hope these verses demonstrate my position a little clearer, that the fall was part of God's plan for the redemption of man even from before the foundation of the world.

[Guest HIS girl]

Yep, I understand your position, but I take the opposite position in the sovereignty v's free will debate .

Satan was Lucifer - one of God's angels. He was no longer an angel of God after being kicked out of God's presence thus becoming satan/devil and his followers - demons.

When God created Lucifer, do you think God knew that Lucifer would fall, and tempt Adam in the garden? I do. And yet God still created Lucifer, knowing what the outcome and implication would be. God is never taken by surprise! God never has to revert to plan B (sending Jesus to redeem us of our sins) because plan A (living peacefully together in the garden) didn't work out.

From my point of view, nothing occurs that God doesn't either cause or allow, including the fall of Lucifer, the fall of man, and the sacrifice of Christ. Yet within this, man has total and complete free will.

I think andy, however sin entered the world via satan - the only way to bring man back is through Jesus Christ (God as man). So in that regard it wasn't plan B so to speak - it was the ONLY plan.

With predestination - everything is set as God has planned before the foundation of the Earth. Keeping this in mind, I ask - was Judas Iscariot's life set in concrete to only betray Jesus and to end up in Hell? (We don't know if he repented at some point prior to his suicide).

Are some lives dispensable and others not?

[~candice~]

Yep, I understand your position, but I take the opposite position in the sovereignty v's free will debate .

Satan was Lucifer - one of God's angels. He was no longer an angel of God after being kicked out of God's presence thus becoming satan/devil and his followers - demons.

When God created Lucifer, do you think God knew that Lucifer would fall, and tempt Adam in the garden? I do. And yet God still created Lucifer, knowing what the outcome and implication would be. God is never taken by surprise! God never has to revert to plan B (sending Jesus to redeem us of our sins) because plan A (living peacefully together in the garden) didn't work out.

From my point of view, nothing occurs that God doesn't either cause or allow, including the fall of Lucifer, the fall of man, and the sacrifice of Christ. Yet within this, man has total and complete free will.

I think andy, however sin entered the world via satan - the only way to bring man back is through Jesus Christ (God as man). So in that regard it wasn't plan B so to speak - it was the ONLY plan.

With predestination - everything is set as God has planned before the foundation of the Earth. Keeping this in mind, I ask - was Judas Iscariot's life set in concrete to only betray Jesus and to end up in Hell? (We don't know if he repented at some point prior to his suicide).

Are some lives dispensable and others not?

Yes, I agree that Jesus was the only plan . I just go one step further and say that man falling was part of that plan, that it necessarily must have happened because it is a precursor to Jesus coming, which was certain. In my thinking the fall of man was certain, whereas in yours, it may or may not have happened (correct me if I am wrong ).

As far as Judas, God knew what free will decisions Judas would make, and He used those free will decisions as part of His beautiful plan to nail Jesus to the cross. You and I both have free will, God knows in advance what we will do with our free will, and He uses this in a sovereign way to bring about His will.