Definition of a cult. IMO

[OneLight]

I know some very fine Catholic brothers and sisters. They differ in doctrine, but they still follow Jesus Christ.

hi OL, do you accept then that you are not a Christian in Catholic church teaching unless you join the Catholic church, which they also teach is the only true church?

I know of those who are Christians and do attend the Catholic Church. I could care less what the Roman Catholic church thinks of me. I am concerned what Christ thinks of me. You are making a blanket statement that would include every single person that attends every single catholic church in the world. Have you met every one of them and asked them personally or can you give me testimony that every single person who attends these churches agree with all of the RC doctrines? If you answer no to either, then you should not condemn every one who enters through their doors.

So you would also hold that a Mormon or a JW can be a Christian while adhereing to false beliefs and practices?

You still havnt addressed the point that according to Catholicism you are not a Christian unless you are a member of theirs. It is not relevant to ask me about the individual peity of persons who go to catholic churches, i am Catholicism and its core beliefs which are wrong and anti- Christ. I too only care what Jesus thinks of me, and I considered this when including Catholics as ones who call themselves by another name.

Then we are discussing two different subjects. I am talking about those who go to the church and you are talking about the RC doctrine. I do not believe in their doctrine, but do believe that there are true Christians within their walls.

Sorry, but I don't fall for traps like this. Mormons believe we will be gods when we die, or when god comes here from his far away planet he is now living on. JW's believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers. Neither are found in the beliefs of Catholics. I do not agree with the RC doctrine, but I do know of those in the church that do not believe in the RC doctrine either. Dave Hunt, from The Berean Call was a catholic for over 30 years and he finally left the church when he placed the RC doctrine up to scripture and realized their errors. Others are doing the same right now. If you would like to discuss the differences, we can. I have a lot of resources on this subject. You can start by reading The Kingdom of the Cults, by Walter Martin, ISBN 978-0-7642-2821-6.

I have to ask, are you saying that every single person in the RC church is not a Christian?

What traps?, i only ask honest questions. I have not actually said i think Catholicism is a cult, I have only said that like virtually all cults they say theyre the only true church.

Now please answer me, are you happy to be thought of by Catholicism as an unbeliever destined to hell? because reguardless of what individuals believe anyone supporting the body supports the head do they not?

I already answered you. I told you that I do not believe in their doctrine, so I am neither sad or happy. You see JCISGD, I was brought up in a Roman Catholic church, went to Catechism classes for many years and know today the lies that are taught.

The trap was that I said that there are some in the Catholic religion that truly believe in Jesus as their savior, without works, and you then brought up that I must also believe the same about Mormons and JW's.

There is Apostasy in the church today. You don't have to look beyond your own little group to see it.

IF you want to discuss cults, then lets do so. If you have any particular cult you wish to discuss, then state it's name. If you are going to make blanket statements, then you are plain wrong in doing so.

We seem to be speaking different languages? I started this post to show up IMO tendencies of cults, and if any church i was part of began teaching any of the points i raised i would be out of there, and would warn others of them. Equating churches who have failings with churches that claim to be the only church is IMO void.

I was not wrong in lumping the Catholic church with others who claim to be the only church and you have not denied they teach this, so i think it is you who are wrong for taking me to task over factual staements.

It was not my intention to single any cult out that is why a used three common names and that only in conjunction to the point being made.

Your welcome to yur opinion, but I will voice my opposition to the R.C and any who support it by association, or should an ex Satanist remain in fellowship to win some?

If you read my first post again, I have been speaking of some who attend the church, not the church itself. I do not believe int eh RC church, and like many false religions, which is man made, they are wrong. Yet, there are those in the RC church that do not really belong to the religion, but to Christ.

There is not one perfect church in the whole time of our existence. If there ever had been one, then the second any human entered within, it would cease to be perfect.

Yes, there are cults, the David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, but they are usually ran by one person. I guess you could say that Pope is this one person, which all started with the first pope, Emperor Constantine, in 312 A.D. This is why in Martin Luther did what he did in 1517.

[elkieDannsa' Air An Drochaid]

2. They call themselves by another name other than just a Christian. i.e "im a Mormon, J.W, Catholic etc"

So you're basically saying that any church which isn't non-denominational could be a cult?

Sorry i shouldve been clearer. No i meant that cults always have a name other than Christian. I go to a denomination that is called Apostolic, but i am not an Apostolic, i am just a Christian and i also go to any church around the world that preaches Christ crucified and the bible as inerrent.

I hesitated to include Catholics as i knew it would upset some, but a Catholic will always even when "non practicing" (in blatant sin) call themselves " a Catholic".

They do not say i am a Christian who goes to a catholic church, they have given themselves another name and this is what they are.

Note:By your own definition your church is a cult then as it calls itself apostolic.

It is NOT the definition of a cult because a church calls itself apostolic however; unless it is really Not Apostolic.

Also historically it is fact that the Catholic Church (Catholic means Universal) is Christian and is of Apostolic succession, apostolic meaning hands on from the Apostles. It is 'the visible Church, a lamp upon the hill', that has taught the Teaching of Christ for nearly two thousand years now and helped with the very Bible we read and also fought against heresy of others since the beginning.

Scripture says that the Scriptures are not of private interpretation; meaning that individuals are not to interpret it themselves all different aside from the Church as it always was, is and always will be Teaching of Christ.

Catholic is Christian they do call themselves Christian.

I can only hope you will research Christian history and learn more and not insult The Church, for that is to insult Christ.

As for Luther and others it would be well to read the real history of it all and the reformation from all sides than just the omission and glossed over versions of the Protestant that persecutes the Catholic Church so unjustly as it does.

On this forum it is not acceptable to discuss Catholic except to bash it. So, of course I cannot discuss with you all I have learned, nor could any Catholic for that matter.

I find your posts, your thread and much of the Catholic Church bashing and name calling even of Catholic Christian Martyrs that I see on this forum, sinful and terrible and a good reason to stay away from these boards and those who act this sinful way.

elkie

[Guest]

Jesus

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1 Corinthians 2:2

Is The Head

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Colossians 2:8-10

I Love You Jesus - My LORD And My God

>>>>>()<<<<<

.... On this forum it is not acceptable to discuss Catholic except to bash it. So, of course I cannot discuss with you all I have learned, nor could any Catholic for that matter ....

Share The Words Of The Head Of The Church

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Psalms 119:11

And Be Blessed

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Luke 4:4

Beloved Sister

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 1:20-21

Thank You LORD Jesus For Brother Pete And For His Testimony

And For All Of Your Holy Words

What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Deuteronomy 12:32

>>>>>()<<<<<

Bash?

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

1 Corinthians 1:2-6

Or Bless

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Because He Is Worthy

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 4:11

And We Are His

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:1

Forever

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:1-2

His

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Romans 8:15

We Love

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Botz]

We seem to be speaking different languages? I started this post to show up IMO tendencies of cults, and if any church i was part of began teaching any of the points i raised i would be out of there, and would warn others of them. Equating churches who have failings with churches that claim to be the only church is IMO void.

I was not wrong in lumping the Catholic church with others who claim to be the only church and you have not denied they teach this, so i think it is you who are wrong for taking me to task over factual staements.

It was not my intention to single any cult out that is why a used three common names and that only in conjunction to the point being made.

Your welcome to yur opinion, but I will voice my opposition to the R.C and any who support it by association, or should an ex Satanist remain in fellowship to win some?

I was following your thread and understood what you were getting at... it is a shame it got side-issued onto the RC discussion.

Seeing it is stuck there for the moment, I am intrigued to understand why some people think it is wrong/unchristian to point out glaring errors in Roman Catholic doctrine and teaching...and why they should be accused of trying to 'bash' Catholics because they seek to promote biblical truth. If somebody bashed or tried to point out errors in what I believe...I think I would welcome it.

I am surprised the Roman Catholic Church has not changed many of its doctrines and admitted some of the age old doctrinal errors....but I guess this would be unthinkable as it would have to filter down from the top...and might bring in the question of infallibility...or demonstrate some kind of weakness.

Anyway a few thoughts with no malice intended whatsoever to any Believers who are Catholic.

[OneLight]

I know some very fine Catholic brothers and sisters. They differ in doctrine, but they still follow Jesus Christ.

hi OL, do you accept then that you are not a Christian in Catholic church teaching unless you join the Catholic church, which they also teach is the only true church?

I know of those who are Christians and do attend the Catholic Church. I could care less what the Roman Catholic church thinks of me. I am concerned what Christ thinks of me. You are making a blanket statement that would include every single person that attends every single catholic church in the world. Have you met every one of them and asked them personally or can you give me testimony that every single person who attends these churches agree with all of the RC doctrines? If you answer no to either, then you should not condemn every one who enters through their doors.

So you would also hold that a Mormon or a JW can be a Christian while adhereing to false beliefs and practices?

You still havnt addressed the point that according to Catholicism you are not a Christian unless you are a member of theirs. It is not relevant to ask me about the individual peity of persons who go to catholic churches, i am Catholicism and its core beliefs which are wrong and anti- Christ. I too only care what Jesus thinks of me, and I considered this when including Catholics as ones who call themselves by another name.

Then we are discussing two different subjects. I am talking about those who go to the church and you are talking about the RC doctrine. I do not believe in their doctrine, but do believe that there are true Christians within their walls.

Sorry, but I don't fall for traps like this. Mormons believe we will be gods when we die, or when god comes here from his far away planet he is now living on. JW's believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers. Neither are found in the beliefs of Catholics. I do not agree with the RC doctrine, but I do know of those in the church that do not believe in the RC doctrine either. Dave Hunt, from The Berean Call was a catholic for over 30 years and he finally left the church when he placed the RC doctrine up to scripture and realized their errors. Others are doing the same right now. If you would like to discuss the differences, we can. I have a lot of resources on this subject. You can start by reading The Kingdom of the Cults, by Walter Martin, ISBN 978-0-7642-2821-6.

I have to ask, are you saying that every single person in the RC church is not a Christian?

What traps?, i only ask honest questions. I have not actually said i think Catholicism is a cult, I have only said that like virtually all cults they say theyre the only true church.

Now please answer me, are you happy to be thought of by Catholicism as an unbeliever destined to hell? because reguardless of what individuals believe anyone supporting the body supports the head do they not?

I already answered you. I told you that I do not believe in their doctrine, so I am neither sad or happy. You see JCISGD, I was brought up in a Roman Catholic church, went to Catechism classes for many years and know today the lies that are taught.

The trap was that I said that there are some in the Catholic religion that truly believe in Jesus as their savior, without works, and you then brought up that I must also believe the same about Mormons and JW's.

There is Apostasy in the church today. You don't have to look beyond your own little group to see it.

IF you want to discuss cults, then lets do so. If you have any particular cult you wish to discuss, then state it's name. If you are going to make blanket statements, then you are plain wrong in doing so.

We seem to be speaking different languages? I started this post to show up IMO tendencies of cults, and if any church i was part of began teaching any of the points i raised i would be out of there, and would warn others of them. Equating churches who have failings with churches that claim to be the only church is IMO void.

I was not wrong in lumping the Catholic church with others who claim to be the only church and you have not denied they teach this, so i think it is you who are wrong for taking me to task over factual staements.

It was not my intention to single any cult out that is why a used three common names and that only in conjunction to the point being made.

Your welcome to yur opinion, but I will voice my opposition to the R.C and any who support it by association, or should an ex Satanist remain in fellowship to win some?

If you read my first post again, I have been speaking of some who attend the church, not the church itself. I do not believe int eh RC church, and like many false religions, which is man made, they are wrong. Yet, there are those in the RC church that do not really belong to the religion, but to Christ.

There is not one perfect church in the whole time of our existence. If there ever had been one, then the second any human entered within, it would cease to be perfect.

Yes, there are cults, the David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, but they are usually ran by one person. I guess you could say that Pope is this one person, which all started with the first pope, Emperor Constantine, in 312 A.D. This is why in Martin Luther did what he did in 1517.

Actually. Peter was the first Pope. When in Rome...

The RC did not exist until 312 AD, so how could Peter be the head of what was not yet created? If the RC was of the following of Peter, then they would never of killed so many followers of Christ, now would they? Peter being the first Pope is just the way the RC tries to justify their foundation.

[amor]

Yes, there are cults, the David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, but they are usually ran by one person. I guess you could say that Pope is this one person, which all started with the first pope, Emperor Constantine, in 312 A.D. This is why in Martin Luther did what he did in 1517.

Actually. Peter was the first Pope. When in Rome...

The RC did not exist until 312 AD, so how could Peter be the head of what was not yet created? If the RC was of the following of Peter, then they would never of killed so many followers of Christ, now would they? Peter being the first Pope is just the way the RC tries to justify their foundation.

The Patriarch of Rome AKA the Pope is an office in existence well before the point at which Constantine proclaimed Christianity as being the official religion of the Roman empire. The claim ithat Peter was the first Pope, however should be treatedv with some scepticism. As to the Roman Catholic Church , that didn't reallycome into existence until the 11th century following the schism between Rome and the Eastern church. In part this was over the limits of the authority of the Popes and the other Patriarchs, (heads of the territorial divisions of what became the Orthodox church), principally the Patriarch of constantinople.

[humbleseeker]

I do not believe that the Catholic church is a cult, I do believe that there histroy is stained with the blood of innocent men and women. They hinder there members from thinking for themselves. They keep priest from being married which is proper under God for a man to take a wife. Peter was a married man. They brutally murdered the Templars bowing down to a homosexual king of France. Money hungry lying to the people to gain funds. I could go on and on.

[OneLight]

Actually. Peter was the first Pope. When in Rome...

The RC did not exist until 312 AD, so how could Peter be the head of what was not yet created? If the RC was of the following of Peter, then they would never of killed so many followers of Christ, now would they? Peter being the first Pope is just the way the RC tries to justify their foundation.

It's called a joke, OneLight. Lighten up or you're going to stroke out before you're fifty, not to mention you have precisely zero chance of correcting anyone's error.

Thanks Rufus, but I am already way past 50!

Well, better take of the serious hat and put on a mellower one. Don't need people worrying about me!

[Sir Gareth]

Well, since this topic has become nothing but an argument overthe catholic church...

I wouldn't call the RCC a cult, just yet anyway, though they do definatly have a major power/control issue and most of their doctrine is wrong (from a biblical standpoint)

I am not affraid to admit that I think the RCC is wrong, but this doesn't mean everyone who is catholic or attends a catholic church is a cultist or that none of them know the true Christ.

[princess2000]

First I want to thank the defenders of Catholicism, I kept track of you while I read, it was good to see Christians jumping to the defense of an insulted comrad

Onelight

Believer1997

Asercretchord

Amor

Sir Gareth

And a special thanks to:

2. They call themselves by another name other than just a Christian. i.e "im a Mormon, J.W, Catholic etc"

So you're basically saying that any church which isn't non-denominational could be a cult?

Sorry i shouldve been clearer. No i meant that cults always have a name other than Christian. I go to a denomination that is called Apostolic, but i am not an Apostolic, i am just a Christian and i also go to any church around the world that preaches Christ crucified and the bible as inerrent.

I hesitated to include Catholics as i knew it would upset some, but a Catholic will always even when "non practicing" (in blatant sin) call themselves " a Catholic".

They do not say i am a Christian who goes to a catholic church, they have given themselves another name and this is what they are.

Note:By your own definition your church is a cult then as it calls itself apostolic.

It is NOT the definition of a cult because a church calls itself apostolic however; unless it is really Not Apostolic.

Also historically it is fact that the Catholic Church (Catholic means Universal) is Christian and is of Apostolic succession, apostolic meaning hands on from the Apostles. It is 'the visible Church, a lamp upon the hill', that has taught the Teaching of Christ for nearly two thousand years now and helped with the very Bible we read and also fought against heresy of others since the beginning.

Scripture says that the Scriptures are not of private interpretation; meaning that individuals are not to interpret it themselves all different aside from the Church as it always was, is and always will be Teaching of Christ.

Catholic is Christian they do call themselves Christian.

I can only hope you will research Christian history and learn more and not insult The Church, for that is to insult Christ.

As for Luther and others it would be well to read the real history of it all and the reformation from all sides than just the omission and glossed over versions of the Protestant that persecutes the Catholic Church so unjustly as it does.

On this forum it is not acceptable to discuss Catholic except to bash it. So, of course I cannot discuss with you all I have learned, nor could any Catholic for that matter.

I find your posts, your thread and much of the Catholic Church bashing and name calling even of Catholic Christian Martyrs that I see on this forum, sinful and terrible and a good reason to stay away from these boards and those who act this sinful way.

elkie

Elkie your words are like a lighthouse in these storm ravaged waters, reading your post soothed my anger.

We seem to be speaking different languages? I started this post to show up IMO tendencies of cults, and if any church i was part of began teaching any of the points i raised i would be out of there, and would warn others of them. Equating churches who have failings with churches that claim to be the only church is IMO void.

I was not wrong in lumping the Catholic church with others who claim to be the only church and you have not denied they teach this, so i think it is you who are wrong for taking me to task over factual staements.

It was not my intention to single any cult out that is why a used three common names and that only in conjunction to the point being made.

Your welcome to yur opinion, but I will voice my opposition to the R.C and any who support it by association, or should an ex Satanist remain in fellowship to win some?

I was following your thread and understood what you were getting at... it is a shame it got side-issued onto the RC discussion.

Seeing it is stuck there for the moment, I am intrigued to understand why some people think it is wrong/unchristian to point out glaring errors in Roman Catholic doctrine and teaching...and why they should be accused of trying to 'bash' Catholics because they seek to promote biblical truth. If somebody bashed or tried to point out errors in what I believe...I think I would welcome it.

Anyway a few thoughts with no malice intended whatsoever to any Believers who are Catholic.

so what your saying is, if anyone says to you, you're wrong, we're right, and you're going to hell for what you believe, you wouldn't be bothered by it, you wouldn't want to bash their heads into the table for saying something so insensitive? You're a better man then anyone I've ever met.

I do not believe that the Catholic church is a cult, I do believe that there histroy is stained with the blood of innocent men and women. They hinder there members from thinking for themselves. They keep priest from being married which is proper under God for a man to take a wife. Peter was a married man.

Hinder memebersl from thinking for themselves...so, if we weren't free thinkers we wouldn't know about other churches, nor would we be alowed to leave our church to join them...which is the exact oposite, if we weren't allowed to think for ourselves then we wouldn't be allowed to research the doctrins and letters...wihc we are allowed to do. I'd say we're very freethinking.

As for the priest being married, I asked one of the pastors at my church to explain it, his explination makes perfect sense. If you marry you have kids, now, what happens when little jimmy (your son) is sick with the flu but your parishoner, let's go with Aggie is dieing in the hospital and needs Anointing of the Sick, the other priest is out of town on a retreat with the youth ministry and you're wife is sleeping because she'd been taking care of Jimmy while you had to run the parish, because you're other priest is out of town. Now you're torn, Aggie needs you because she's dying but you want to be there for your son and let your wife sleep, and you can't send anyone in your place. If you weren't married this wouldn't be a problem. So instead you marry the church itself and take the entire parish, young, old, everyone, as your children. So, in retrospect the priests have the biggest family of them all.

Peace out

~Beka

Edited October 5, 2009 by princess2000