How did the early churches operate?

[Guest yod]

you can justify this bigotry? Thanks for showing us that you're just another jew hater.

how utterly tragic

I suppose you have no problem with the hundreds of churches in history that had the judensau also?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judensau

[leoxiii]

Thanks for showing us that you're just another jew hater.

how utterly tragic

Thanks for exposing yourself as a Judaizer. The Church dealt with you guys at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) but you just never went away.

[Guest yod]

Thanks for showing us that you're just another jew hater.

how utterly tragic

Thanks for exposing yourself as a Judaizer. The Church dealt with you guys at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) but you just never went away.

The judaizers are in Galatians.

Acts 15 is the controversy about how gentiles could be grafted into the faith of jews without first living as jews. Those jews making the decision (Kefa, Shaul, Ya'acov a.k.a. Peter, Paul, & James) wisely decided that Gentiles didn't have to live like jews to be considered a christian. But less than a century later the tables were turned when the "church" became predominantly gentile and began ethnically cleansing the jews by telling them they had to live like gentiles.

I've only offered you the proof you asked for. Instead of addressing the historical facts, you can only offer insults? What a mental giant you are!

Ignorance is for ignorant people.

Here are a few quotes from Vatican II since you seem to trust the RCC more than God Himself

what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today.

the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures.

the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.

We cannot truly call on God, the Father of all, if we refuse to treat in a brotherly way any man, created as he is in the image of God.

No foundation therefore remains for any theory or practice that leads to discrimination between man and man or people and people, so far as their human dignity and the rights flowing from it are concerned.

The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

But the "church" condemned the jews who gave the gospel to them. The "church" began ethnically cleansing jews out in the 2nd century and had completed that by the 4th century

You could say the same toward Jews who killed and persecuted Christians of the early church? Even Jesus prophesied of it? Paul was one of those who persecuted Christians.

Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

You cant deny that Christians have been a subject to much Jewish persecution. Even today, if a Jew believes in Christ they are rejected by Jews and not considered a Jew any longer. You can be a Jew and be a murder, Homosexual, and commit any other horrible sin and still be a Jew but once you become a believer in Christ then your nolong considered a Jew in eyes of Jews.

When will you all address the double standard?

[Guest yod]

But the "church" condemned the jews who gave the gospel to them. The "church" began ethnically cleansing jews out in the 2nd century and had completed that by the 4th century

You could say the same toward Jews who killed and persecuted Christians of the early church? Even Jesus prophesied of it?

Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

You cant deny that Christians have been a subject to much Jewish persecution. Even today, if a Jew believes in Christ they are rejected by Jews and not considered a Jew any longer. You can be a Jew and be a murder, Homosexual, and commit any other horrible sin and still be a Jew but once you become a believer in Christ then your no long considered in eyes of Jews.

When will you all address the double standard?

I don't deny that jews have persecuted each other over what the faith of Israel "is" but not a single gentile christian was ever persecuted by the jews in the biblical accounts.

The recent persecution of messianic jews in Israel is something I have first hand knowledge of and it is a small percentage of a small percentage of Orthodox carrying out (mostly) harassment against people they view as stealing jewish souls. They are, of course, ignorant in their defense of judaism as the true faith of Israel but gentile christians are not their targets. This is an in-family squabble.

So it is not "the jews" doing this against christians as you seem to imply, but rather "some jews" doing this against other jews who happen to believe in Yeshua. In an editorial in today's newspaper, (Ha'arets in Israel) they strongly condemn the persecution of messianic jews in Israel by the anti-missionary groups. Well over 85-90% of Israeli jews disapprove of this persecution.

On the other hand, how many tens of thousands of jews were forced to "convert" and then killed in the Spanish Inquisition? Many of them were professing faith in Jesus. Google "Marannos" if you want to know more.

And we just saw a "christian" justify the murder of millions of jews at the hands of christians in the last 2,000 years.

...and no one seems to want to address the hateful judensau statue placed at great expense on the major churches and cathedrals of Europe.

[leoxiii]

Thanks for showing us that you're just another jew hater.

how utterly tragic

Thanks for exposing yourself as a Judaizer. The Church dealt with you guys at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) but you just never went away.

The judaizers are in Galatians.

Acts 15 is the controversy about how gentiles could be grafted into the faith of jews without first living as jews. Those jews making the decision (Kefa, Shaul, Ya'acov a.k.a. Peter, Paul, & James) wisely decided that Gentiles didn't have to live like jews to be considered a christian. But less than a century later the tables were turned when the "church" became predominantly gentile and began ethnically cleansing the jews by telling them they had to live like gentiles.

I've only offered you the proof you asked for. Instead of addressing the historical facts, you can only offer insults? What a mental giant you are!

Ignorance is for ignorant people.

I was dumbfounded by this reply of yours:

Thanks for showing us that you're just another jew hater.

how utterly tragic

It will take years for the best minds in the world to fathom its pith and profundity.

Here are a few quotes from Vatican II since you seem to trust the RCC more than God Himself

what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today.

the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures.

the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.

We cannot truly call on God, the Father of all, if we refuse to treat in a brotherly way any man, created as he is in the image of God.

No foundation therefore remains for any theory or practice that leads to discrimination between man and man or people and people, so far as their human dignity and the rights flowing from it are concerned.

The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion.

I couldn't agree more with the Vatican's teaching. But the Magisterium is not teaching that we should accept Judaism, and that is what Jesus, the Apostles, and the Early Fathers were addressing. There is no affinity between post-Biblical Judaism and Christianity.

[Guest yod]

I couldn't agree more with the Vatican's teaching.

Then you'll have to retract what you just said in this thread.

But the Magisterium is not teaching that we should accept Judaism, and that is what Jesus, the Apostles, and the Early Fathers were addressing.

uh...no.

Jesus and the Apostles were jews and remained jews. The ECF were bigots so they don't have any authority in the first place. (if you truly agree with Vatican II)

There is no affinity between post-Biblical Judaism and Christianity.

How can there be when the "church" has so much blood on it's hands?

Judaism didn't even begin until 90 AD at Yavneh so all "judaism" is post-biblical.

[nebula]

Woah! How do you get from "opened their understanding" to changing the operation?

Do you not agree that praying, teaching Scripture, communing together, and worshiping the Lord, are largely effected by one's understanding, or lack of understanding, of the Scriptures?

Did you learn how to pray, teach Scripture, commune, and worship the Lord all on your own, or were you guided by your church/church leaders/other Christians?

I believe I was taught by men who were guided by the Holy Spirit.

Right - you followed what was passed down to you.

So did the Apostles and first believers. There is no reason they ever stopped praying, "Baruch HaShem Adonai Elohenu Melech Ha'olam..."

Men to whom the Apostolic Teaching was delivered undefiled.

Was that before or after pagan influences infiltrated the church? What's St. Peter's Square doing with an Egyptian obelisk in it's square anyway?

The word "Obelisk" comes from the Greek obeliskos, meaning a prong for roasting. It is a stone that is frequently monolithic, of a quadrangular base, placed upright and ending with a pointed top. It was placed in the center of large open spaces in the temples of the solar god RA. They arose, by the time of the predynastic period cults, to a great sacred stone which was raised in the Temple of Heliopolis, the "City of the Sun." As with the pyramids, this monument had a primitive relation with the solar cult.

http://www.egipto.com/obeliscos/histo2.html

Pure my foot!

I confirm this by 1 John 4:6 We are of God. He that knoweth God, heareth us. He that is not of God, heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. and Luke 10:16 He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

That's what all cults say. Heard it before time and time again.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

How can there be when the "church" has so much blood on it's hands?

See that's where I have a problem. Yes there have been certain people and groups in history that have persecuted Jews in the name of Christianity, but the church as a whole is not guilty of this. It sounds like your assigning blame to the entire body of Christ. Just because some people or groups used the name of Christ to persecute others does not make the Church as a whole guilty of it. I question anyone's salvation that persecutes others in the name of religion or for any other reason. So if you wanna assign blame, assign it to whom did the persecution rather then making blanket statements against all believers. There are churches who have and approve of abortion. Should we condemn that whole Church as abortionist. There are churches who are and approve of homosexuality. Should we say that the whole church is guilty of this.

Christians are one of the few groups that I know that reaches out to Jews. I really cant think of any other group outside of Christianity that reaches out and supports Jews and their rightful land of Israel; I am sure there are a some exceptions. Yet you wanna paint all believers as Jew haters, or am I reading you wrong.

[Guest yod]

How can there be when the "church" has so much blood on it's hands?

See that's where I have a problem. Yes there have been certain people and groups in history that have persecuted Jews in the name of Christianity, but the church as a whole is not guilty of this. It sounds like your assigning blame to the entire body of Christ. Just because some people or groups used the name of Christ to persecute others does not make the Church as a whole guilty of it. I question anyone's salvation that persecutes others in the name of religion or for any other reason.

You have a very good point and I apologize to christians for any hint of guilt which belongs to the "church". I'm assuming that people know what I mean by that and, of course, that isn't always the case.

If one views the "church" as separated from Israel, then that person has a flawed view derived from European theologians which is in contradiction to the scriptures. According the Word, those who put their faith in the Messiah and King of Israel have been joined to the commonwealth of Israel and brought near to the covenants given to them alone. We are in equal in the Kingdom only in the fact that we have been joined to what God started a long time ago in Israel long before Acts 2 happened.

Even the New Covenant is made with "The House of Judah and the House of Israel" according to Jeremiah 31:31 (the only place the New Testament is mentioned in advance of Yeshua and what the Apostles were expecting)

There is no such thing as "church" (as we have been taught by european theologians) in the Bible. That takes some unpacking to explain and I've done it several times but I'll do a brief summary again for clarity.

Biblically we are all one community of bondservants rather than 30,000 denominations of greco-roman philosophical debate. The words of the Bible which are translated into english as "church" have no religious connotations at all yet the word "church" means a specifically christian religion separate from Israel. This gives the reader a different understanding than what the original scriptures were saying.

The word "synagoge" simply meant a place of meeting, the word "ecclesia" simply meant a gathering for a specific purpose. Through fiat of interpretation those words were translated to create a new religion. Where does the Lord ever say He came to start a new religion? Tyndale was burned at the stake for refusing to translate those words as "church" because that is not their defintion or meaning!

Nowhere in the biblical narrative does it state that "the jews" are accursed or irrevocably rejected as has been taught by the "church" thoughout our history. The Lord promises a glorious future to Israel and we, the faithful of the nations, will be equally honored citizens with them in that promise. We are clearly told to show them mercy as we have been shown mercy (Romans 11) that they might also come to faith because at this time it is only a remnant until all of Israel is saved.

So if you wanna assign blame, assign it to whom did the persecution rather then making blanket statements against all believers. There are churches who have and approve of abortion. Should we condemn that whole Church as abortionist. There are churches who are and approve of homosexuality. Should we say that the whole church is guilty of this.

Most of the church does condemn abortion and it has always been that way. Same with homosexuality. Those issues have always been opposed by the majority. However, as an organizational structure, the "church" has a horrible history when it comes to jews. That's just the truth no matter how much we may not like.

Christians are one of the few groups that I know that reaches out to Jews. I really cant think of any other group outside of Christianity that reaches out and supports Jews and their rightful land of Israel; I am sure there are a some exceptions. Yet you wanna paint all believers as Jew haters, or am I reading you wrong.

Yes, NOW that is a true statement but if you were to take a global poll of what christians believe, you would find that those who support Israel even within the church are a minority.

We are a growing minority now that the scriptures have been made available for all to read themselves (as opposed to having it dictated to us by a Priest speaking in Latin) and also since the rebirth of the nation of Israel has proven the theological redefining of the word "Israel" as false.