How did the early churches operate?

[Smalcald]

I would encourage Jewish Christian believers to continue in their heritage.

But I really do disagree with the idea yod that the very concept of a Church as it is formed today is post-biblical. I mean we have specific instructions within scripture (which was indeed written in Greek) about Church life put forth in the New Testament, why define the roles of Bishop, Elder Deacon, if they were not new roles at that time? Why did Christ Himself say I WILL establish my Church on this Rock, He didn't say I will continue on as before, or that this is a gathering, no He said it was something He would establish, something real, tangible and also Spiritual. Why did Paul give specific instructions about how to take communion? Do people who practice Judaism take communion?

The Body of Christ is ALL believers, Jews, Gentiles, Arabs and Chinese, there is no difference with Christ in this Body.

But make no mistake I have never met a religious Jew a person practicing Judaism who believed that the Messiah was God regardless of when that Messiah came nor that this Messiah would forgive them of their sins and set up a spiritual Kingdom. What the New Testament teaches about who Jesus really is; IS RADICALLY different from what modern Judaism teaches. It is not fair nor honest to speak of conversion to a belief in Christ as part of the Holy Trinity as God Himself as a simple extension of Judaism, it is a big deal to convert.

There is a reason that the religious leaders within Judaism today say that a Jew can be an atheist and still be a Jew, a Jew can actually reject God and still be a Jew, there is one thing that a Jew cannot be and still be a Jew according to JEWS, not gentiles and that is a follower of Christ as Lord and Savior.

[Guest yod]

I would encourage Jewish Christian believers to continue in their heritage.

But I really do disagree with the idea yod that the very concept of a Church as it is formed today is post-biblical. I mean we have specific instructions within scripture (which was indeed written in Greek) about Church life put forth in the New Testament, why define the roles of Bishop, Elder Deacon, if they were not new roles at that time? Why did Christ Himself say I WILL establish my Church on this Rock, He didn't say I will continue on as before, or that this is a gathering, no He said it was something He would establish, something real, tangible and also Spiritual. Why did Paul give specific instructions about how to take communion? Do people who practice Judaism take communion?

Of course those things are true but here is the problem:

The "church" quickly rid themselves of the jews and has been interpreting those things through a lense of greek philosophy instead of through the hebraic faith that God gave us in the Bible through the hands, tears, and death of jews throughout history. I'm not saying any of these things because I carry any bitterness towards christians. Ignorance is the enemy I'm out to destroy.

Not sure how I can convince you or anyone else that I do love the Body more than my own life! I want to see reform of our attitudes. I want to see a love for the truth even if it challenges everything we're standing on currently.

There is no reason to fear the truth no matter where it leads or how scary it seems.

The Body of Christ is ALL believers, Jews, Gentiles, Arabs and Chinese, there is no difference with Christ in this Body.

and you say this to me because....?

It seems clearly obvious that there are distinctions but can you cite even one example since I've been here (2002) that even hints that I promote the idea that there is any preference? Please help me understand what you "think" I'm saying!?

But make no mistake I have never met a religious Jew a person practicing Judaism who believed that the Messiah was God regardless of when that Messiah came nor that this Messiah would forgive them of their sins and set up a spiritual Kingdom. What the New Testament teaches about who Jesus really is; IS RADICALLY different from what modern Judaism teaches. It is not fair nor honest to speak of conversion to a belief in Christ as part of the Holy Trinity as God Himself as a simple extension of Judaism, it is a big deal to convert.

Brother, this is my life's work. I an pro-active about that situation and take more risks than I should.

I'm more than half expecting to be arrested in Israel next week as a missionary. Not because I'm going to be standing on the corner handing out tracts but simply because I am pro-active in saying that there is but One way to the Father no matter who is asking.

There is a reason that the religious leaders within Judaism today say that a Jew can be an atheist and still be a Jew, a Jew can actually reject God and still be a Jew, there is one thing that a Jew cannot be and still be a Jew according to JEWS, not gentiles and that is a follower of Christ as Lord and Savior.

Help me understand why you are saying this to me? Do you think I don't know that intimately?

I thought this conversation was about the original faith community and what that original kahal was like?

Yet I'm finding that those who ask the question are not sincere in wanting to know if it challenges them to drop their presumptions and examine the actual facts in context as I began doing 20 years ago.

[nebula]

Not his ethnicity.

And if you take away all those things you mentioned above, what of his ethnicity remains?

If a Muslim comes to Christ are they still Muslim? And is it ok for them to continue to practice Islam if they are born again? Being Jew is linked more to the religion of Judaism then it does their ethnicity. That's why Jews say when a Jew confesses Christ they are no longer Jew. I personally disagree with that becuase I think one becomes a true Jew when they are born again and not based on who your natural parents are but who your spiritual parents are.

There are a few problems with what you said here. For one, I know many Jews who are atheists or into some variation of New Age - Neo-paganism things. They are still Jews, had a Jewish wedding, etc. But they don't follow the modern Jewish religion, nor do they honor Shabbot (Sabbath), kosher laws, etc. So, if practicing another religion makes one no longer Jewish, why are atheists and New Agers still considered Jews?

Christianity is singled out by Jews because of the severe history of persecution against Jews by Christians. "Christians" have a dark history of murdering Jews - you can't deny this. They think of us as the enemy. "The Christians murdered all the Jews." A Jew can practice any religion and still be a Jew, but if a Jew becomes a Christian then they are considered traitors. That's our fault.

Now, what do you call someone who is a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Islam has no bloodline associations the way a Jew does.

You can't force the natural branches to be grafted back into their own vine as wild branches. (Romans 11)

Yes Jews who believe are the natural branches but Jew's who don't believe are not apart of the Olivie Tree or Vine.

When someone is born again they are not joined with those who do not believe (Judaism). They are joined with those who believe both Jew and Gentile Christians.

Well thank you for acknowledging that they are still Jews!

The Olive tree is not Israel or Jews. The Olive Tree represents Gods Kingdom in which Jews were naturally apart of but taken away from because they did not believe in Christ, but not all Jews. A small remnant were faithful and believed in Christ. Christ ordered them to take the Gospel to the nations. Now believers from all over the world have been grafted in to the Olive tree/Kingdom both Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians together making up the branches of this Olive Tree/ God's Kingdom.

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Why do you argue as if I'm saying salvation can be attained through Judaism? I never said that.

An unsaved Jew is a natural branch that has been cut off. A saved Jew is a natural branch that has been grafted back into his own tree. This was my point - they are still the natural branches and should be allowed to function as a natural branch, not be made into a wild branch by stripping them of their natural identity.

[Guest yod]

QUOTE (Smalcald @ Oct 21 2009, 06:39 AM) *

I would encourage Jewish Christian believers to continue in their heritage.

They are the ONLY people on planet earth whose heritage is the Bible. They were created specifically as witnesses of God unlike any other person who has a heritage. In Texas, we have Texas history books. In ISRAEL, they have the bible. Who else can make that claim?

But I really do disagree with the idea yod that the very concept of a Church as it is formed today is post-biblical. I mean we have specific instructions within scripture (which was indeed written in Greek) about Church life put forth in the New Testament, why define the roles of Bishop, Elder Deacon, if they were not new roles at that time?

The greco-church idea of a Bishop and elders is not the same thing as what Paul was talking about. Shall we unpack why or just argue about the words?

Why did Christ Himself say I WILL establish my Church on this Rock,

He didn't say that. That is a translation of a hebrew speaker into jewish-greek from latin texts and then finally given to you in english

What He said was that He would establish a community of faith. That might seem like a small distinction to you...but it makes a world of difference in the way it is implemented. His message exalts every saint but by translating this as "church" it has been interpreted as exalting saints only through a post-biblical and specifically christian religious institution.

[Smalcald]

I would encourage Jewish Christian believers to continue in their heritage.

But I really do disagree with the idea yod that the very concept of a Church as it is formed today is post-biblical. I mean we have specific instructions within scripture (which was indeed written in Greek) about Church life put forth in the New Testament, why define the roles of Bishop, Elder Deacon, if they were not new roles at that time? Why did Christ Himself say I WILL establish my Church on this Rock, He didn't say I will continue on as before, or that this is a gathering, no He said it was something He would establish, something real, tangible and also Spiritual. Why did Paul give specific instructions about how to take communion? Do people who practice Judaism take communion?

Of course those things are true but here is the problem:

The "church" quickly rid themselves of the jews and has been interpreting those things through a lense of greek philosophy instead of through the hebraic faith that God gave us in the Bible through the hands, tears, and death of jews throughout history. I'm not saying any of these things because I carry any bitterness towards christians. Ignorance is the enemy I'm out to destroy.

Not sure how I can convince you or anyone else that I do love the Body more than my own life! I want to see reform of our attitudes. I want to see a love for the truth even if it challenges everything we're standing on currently.

There is no reason to fear the truth no matter where it leads or how scary it seems.

The Body of Christ is ALL believers, Jews, Gentiles, Arabs and Chinese, there is no difference with Christ in this Body.

and you say this to me because....?

It seems clearly obvious that there are distinctions but can you cite even one example since I've been here (2002) that even hints that I promote the idea that there is any preference? Please help me understand what you "think" I'm saying!?

But make no mistake I have never met a religious Jew a person practicing Judaism who believed that the Messiah was God regardless of when that Messiah came nor that this Messiah would forgive them of their sins and set up a spiritual Kingdom. What the New Testament teaches about who Jesus really is; IS RADICALLY different from what modern Judaism teaches. It is not fair nor honest to speak of conversion to a belief in Christ as part of the Holy Trinity as God Himself as a simple extension of Judaism, it is a big deal to convert.

Brother, this is my life's work. I an pro-active about that situation and take more risks than I should.

I'm more than half expecting to be arrested in Israel next week as a missionary. Not because I'm going to be standing on the corner handing out tracts but simply because I am pro-active in saying that there is but One way to the Father no matter who is asking.

There is a reason that the religious leaders within Judaism today say that a Jew can be an atheist and still be a Jew, a Jew can actually reject God and still be a Jew, there is one thing that a Jew cannot be and still be a Jew according to JEWS, not gentiles and that is a follower of Christ as Lord and Savior.

Help me understand why you are saying this to me? Do you think I don't know that intimately?

I thought this conversation was about the original faith community and what that original kahal was like?

Yet I'm finding that those who ask the question are not sincere in wanting to know if it challenges them to drop their presumptions and examine the actual facts in context as I began doing 20 years ago.

I don't think you have ever said there are preferences and in fact we do see that the Jewish nation as you have pointed out correctly following scripture is the original tree.

I am not sure anything I said applies to what you said? Probably not. I will say the more I learn about Judaism today, the more I realize how different it is from what I believe is taught in the New Testament about Christ and who He is.

[Guest yod]

I will say the more I learn about Judaism today, the more I realize how different it is from what I believe is taught in the New Testament about Christ and who He is.

the religion of "judaism" began AFTER the Temple was destroyed in Yavneh 90 AD.

When the jewish believers refused to fight the Romans was really when their persecution spread from just the religious leaders of Judah. There is so much history that is being ignored in this conversation which would put things in the proper context.

And judaism undergoes a transformation every couple of hundred years. The Orthodox of today were considered heretics just a couple of hundred years ago. Chabad-nics were considered heretics for quite a long time before their recent acceptance by "some" in Judaism.

There is not monolithic thought within the religion of judaism...but unlike buddists, hindus, muslims, and other world religions "judaism" is the religion of jews.

And jews were established as a people by the Lord Himself for the purpose of the gentiles knowing Him. It seems we should be grateful about that, ya know? It seems that we would take the command in Romans 11 about showing them mercy in return for having been shown mercy.

It would be quite a stretch to say that the religion of "christianity" has ever show mercy to the jews...believers or not.

[nebula]

But I really do disagree with the idea yod that the very concept of a Church as it is formed today is post-biblical. I mean we have specific instructions within scripture (which was indeed written in Greek) about Church life put forth in the New Testament, why define the roles of Bishop, Elder Deacon, if they were not new roles at that time?

The word Bishop is Episkopos which simply means "overseer" (reference).

An Elder is exactly that - an older, mature person given authority on account of their maturity and experience.

The things we have done to these positions have absolutely no Biblical grounding whatsoever.

Why did Christ Himself say I WILL establish my Church on this Rock, He didn't say I will continue on as before, or that this is a gathering, no He said it was something He would establish, something real, tangible and also Spiritual.

Again, the word "church" is of German origin that somehow was used to describe the meeting place and assembly of Christians. The Greek word is ekklesia which simply means "assembly". So Jesus really did say, "I will establish my assembly...."

Now, what does "establishing my ekklesia on this Rock" have to do with how a service is conducted?

Why did Paul give specific instructions about how to take communion? Do people who practice Judaism take communion?

What we call communion is a snippet out of the Jewish Passover Seder.

The Body of Christ is ALL believers, Jews, Gentiles, Arabs and Chinese, there is no difference with Christ in this Body.

That's a funny list. Are Arabs and Chinese separate from Gentiles?

But make no mistake I have never met a religious Jew a person practicing Judaism who believed that the Messiah was God regardless of when that Messiah came nor that this Messiah would forgive them of their sins and set up a spiritual Kingdom.

Yeah, so?

What the New Testament teaches about who Jesus really is; IS RADICALLY different from what modern Judaism teaches. It is not fair nor honest to speak of conversion to a belief in Christ as part of the Holy Trinity as God Himself as a simple extension of Judaism, it is a big deal to convert.

OK, how many times do we have to re-explain this? We aren't advocating anyone follow "modern Judaism." We talking about letting a Jew continue worshiping the Lord in the way given to them in Scripture. Shabbot, eating Kosher, celebrating the Feasts of the Lord, etc.

There is a reason that the religious leaders within Judaism today say that a Jew can be an atheist and still be a Jew, a Jew can actually reject God and still be a Jew, there is one thing that a Jew cannot be and still be a Jew according to JEWS, not gentiles and that is a follower of Christ as Lord and Savior.

And like I said, that's because of the bad history between Christians against Jews. They see conversion to Christianity as becoming a traitor.

[Guest yod]

Thanks Nebula!

And there are many other differences between biblical (jewish) concept of an shammish in the kahal.

I'll use the english translations so people understand what I'm talking about though even the intrepreted words can't truly convey the meaning.

What Paul was teaching came from the schooling he got in Jerusalem under Gamiliel. He was trained in the planting of synagogues...not "churches". These weren't a new revelation from God but the way JEWS had been doing things since the Babylonian captivity of 600 BC

An Elder/Bishop is simply someone who is respected as a sage for his wisdom through long life's experience. He was highly honored for his counsel in common sense matters of righteousness. A "deacon" comes from the hebrew "shammish" which means "servant". They were the ones who carried out the wisdom of the elders in practical terms of getting things done.

They weren't appointed because of a seminary degree or even any education necessarily. They were recognized as servants and this service was the only reason they had any authority.

Let's juxtapose that with today, shall we? An elder/bishop/deacon is usually appointed because they agree with the Pastor who is the CEO. Or in some places they are the Board of Directors which hires/fires the Pastor. Most of the time they are appointed because they are the biggest financial supporters of that particular "church" building.

In some places they make the decision about what they will let the Pastor talk about.

And the Pastor? That is usually someone whose only real requirement is that he has a degree from a particular denominational seminary to teach the denominational line.

Does anyone really think this is what Paul was talking about?

I've got a mountain top cabin in Dallas that I'd like to sell you!

[EricH]

have you ever heard this verse preached in your (OR ANY) church?

Romans 15

For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem. They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews' spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

Did you see that? you and I (and all christians) have a debt to jewish believers. This means that not only should they not be eradicated in the Spanish Inquisition and other various persecutions from the "church" but that we should be pro-active in supporting messianic jews.

Of course.....you'ld have to trust God and His Word to accept that.

I personally have never considered the implications of that passage. As I read it, my sense is that Paul was talking about Jewish believers back in Jerusalem, but I could be wrong. In either case, I have some thinking and praying to do

[EricH]

have you ever heard this verse preached in your (OR ANY) church?

I personally have. So it is probably best not to over-generalize