How did the early churches operate?

[Guest shiloh357]

It is a sin if by doing it they think they are saved.

And they so think.

No, they do not think they are saved by doing it. Judaism does not possess the concept of salvation in a personal or individual sense. So the idea of being "saved by the law" is a concept foreign to Judaism. You will not find it in their teachings. You don't know squat about Jews.

O, and righteousness does exist outside the Torah. Read the Code of Hammurabi. Or the Tablets of the Law of the ancient Romans. Even some pagans had enough sense to respect their parents and not steal from each other.

Well righteousness doesn't exist outside of the Torah. The righteousness Jesus provides was taught about in the Torah all along. The Torah is the only ancient document of its time that pointed to righteousness.

Trying to compare the Code of Hammurabi or the law of the ancient Romans to the Torah is nonsense. Simply because they had a few a laws that bore some similarity to certain commandments in the Torah means nothing really. Hammurabi's code for instance, does not contain the mercy the Torah contains. In ancient Rome the Emporer was divine, god on earth and served as, among other things, the high priest of the Empire and was the source of all law. You cannot compare Roman law with the Torah, as it is the Word of God. The Torah describes how to Love God and love man. Roman law bore no similarity to the substance of the Torah whatsoever.

If one thinks they can be saved by being circumcised, then they are lost.

If one thinks they can be saved by following the Law, then they are lost.

If one thinks they can be saved by having two refrigerators, one for dairy and one for meat, then they are lost.

Like I said, they are not trying to be saved by the law. I would also point out that circumcision and following the law of Moses were hallmarks of the life of Paul who still considered Himself a Torah keeping, kosher eating Jew and a Pharisee right up to the time of his death. Kashrut was even approved of by the Holy Spirit in Acts.

[Guest shiloh357]

We seem to all want to use what we think the first Christians did and how they lived to justify our own doctrines now.

For me I think we should stick with what is shown in scripture, which leaves some wiggle room, I believe it leaves wiggle room intentionally. This would allow for the future diversity of the global Christian Church as it spread around the Globe as Christ had said that it would.

I am somewhat torn on this. I love the Christian Church, I believe that God has through His divine providence used it to spread the Gospel to billions of billions of souls who are now in heaven, this would include my evangelical brothers and sisters, my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, my Orthodox brothers and sisters and especially my Jewish brothers and sisters (although there are not enough of them, maybe Yod can change that!).

At the same time gentile Christians as part of this Church have often been part of anti-Semitism and hate, my own Church being part of that back in 1550 and even longer, anti-Semitism has not been the only problem; we have also been racists with our Southern Baptist friends in the not so distant past not even allowing blacks to enter their churches at all.

So we see this double edge, the holy and the ugly, which would make sense given who scripture says we are.

But I cannot stand and say the Christian Church is intrinsically bad, or has been a horrible thing on the face of the earth, this is the Hitchens argument, the atheist stand. The Christian Church the Body of Christ has followed Christ and the gates of Hades have NOT prevailed against it; it has been the largest force for good in the entire globe in history, and yes evil has been done in its name, but that evil does not define the Church.

Amen to that.

But, consider: Jesus promised that He would dwell in the Church forever, and that the Holy Spirit would guide Her. I say that makes the Church both human and divine, exactly like Jesus, whose Body She is. Ergo, it is impossible for the Church to sin in Her divine Nature, but constantly sins in Her human Nature. And the perfection for which She ever strives while a pilgrim here on earth, is to be also sinless in Her human Nature, exactly as Her divine Founder and Husband, of whose Flesh, as His Bride, She will one day be one.

Yeah, that is false teaching. The Bible never makes such declarations about the Church. Jesus dwells in us in the person of the Holy Spirit. The Bible never calls the church divine, as the church is made up of people, meaning that the people making up the church would have to be divine. Jesus was not just human and Divinel. Jesus' humanity was sinless in its constitution. Jesus did not have to strive for it. There is simply no comparison.

The Bible nowhere claims the church is both human and divine and NEVER calls the church sinless in its "divine nature."

To be divine, means to be God. What you are suggesting is very pagan and amounts to idolatry.

[leoxiii]

That the Church has a divine component:

Matthew 28:20 ... and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.

"you" is plural here. Not singular. It is corporate. Not individual.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member.

Again, the "you" is plural. Corporate. Not individual.

And about the Church:

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: 26 That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish.

John 17:17 Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. 20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;

21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.

The Church is holy.

Yet She is filled with sinners.

Sinners are not holy.

Therefore, the Church is holy in Her divine Nature, and sinful in Her human Nature.

And one day She will be utterly holy in Her human Nature, for She is the Bride of Christ:

Apocalypse 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. ... 27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb. ... 22:17 And the spirit and the bride say: Come.

I am not giving this Church any name. I am just making the point that Christ did indeed found a Church and that He gave to His Church divine components.

[Guest shiloh357]

That the Church has a divine component:

Matthew 28:20 ... and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.

"you" is plural here. Not singular. It is corporate. Not individual.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member.

Again, the "you" is plural. Corporate. Not individual.

And about the Church:

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: 26 That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish.

John 17:17 Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. 20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;

21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.

The Church is holy.

Yet She is filled with sinners.

Sinners are not holy.

Therefore, the Church is holy in Her divine Nature, and sinful in Her human Nature.

And one day She will be utterly holy in Her human Nature, for She is the Bride of Christ:

Apocalypse 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. ... 27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb. ... 22:17 And the spirit and the bride say: Come.

I am not giving this Church any name. I am just making the point that Christ did indeed found a Church and that He gave to His Church divine components.

No, God has not given the church any "divine components." The Church has no "divine nature." I don't think you really understand the terminology you are using, and if you do, you are in gross, false doctrine.

The only one who has a Divine nature is God. Divine = God. One cannot possess a divine nature and not be God. One of the hallmarks of false religions is when they tell us to conntect to the inner "divine nature." To claim that anyone or anything has a divine nature other than God is to promote idolatry.

Jesus lives in the believer. All believers are holy. That does not mean we possess a divine nature. There is NO divinity outside of the Godhead.

[Guest yod]

I am just making the point that Christ did indeed found a Church and that He gave to His Church divine components.

this is a good example of how mistranslating the biblical words used as "church" changes the meaning.

He founded an assembly of faith. not an organization or institution with a hierarchy lording it over the laity

We can meet in buildings and have Pastors, elders, deacons that fit the biblical mandate without having a religion that manipulates and controls the saints through fiat of greco-church theological redefining of terms.

[nebula]

So "Adonai" is a false god?

Do the Jews have the Son? NO. Then how can you say they have the Father? The Bible clearly says they do not.

Matt. 5

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

You're avoiding the question -

When a Jew prays to "Adonai", who is the prayer to?

And you need to go and learn what the word "religion" really means, not what you want it to mean.

Knowing you are Catholic? I believe your idea of religion is "Hail Mary's" and rosaries and asking dead people to pray for you and needing an ordained priest to connect you to God and the like.

Main Entry: re

[nebula]

and that He gave to His Church divine components.

None of those Scriptures you listed mentioned anything about structure, organization, ritual, traditions, sacraments, etc.

[leoxiii]

That the Church has a divine component:

Matthew 28:20 ... and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.

"you" is plural here. Not singular. It is corporate. Not individual.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member.

Again, the "you" is plural. Corporate. Not individual.

And about the Church:

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: 26 That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish.

John 17:17 Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. 20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;

21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.

The Church is holy.

Yet She is filled with sinners.

Sinners are not holy.

Therefore, the Church is holy in Her divine Nature, and sinful in Her human Nature.

And one day She will be utterly holy in Her human Nature, for She is the Bride of Christ:

Apocalypse 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. ... 27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb. ... 22:17 And the spirit and the bride say: Come.

I am not giving this Church any name. I am just making the point that Christ did indeed found a Church and that He gave to His Church divine components.

No, God has not given the church any "divine components." The Church has no "divine nature." I don't think you really understand the terminology you are using, and if you do, you are in gross, false doctrine.

The only one who has a Divine nature is God. Divine = God. One cannot possess a divine nature and not be God. One of the hallmarks of false religions is when they tell us to conntect to the inner "divine nature." To claim that anyone or anything has a divine nature other than God is to promote idolatry.

Jesus lives in the believer. All believers are holy. That does not mean we possess a divine nature. There is NO divinity outside of the Godhead.

I never said there was. The Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore, She is not outside the Godhead.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained equal faith with us in the justice of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Grace to you and peace be accomplished in the knowledge of God and of Christ Jesus our Lord: 3 As all things of his divine power which appertain to life and godliness, are given us, through the knowledge of him who hath called us by his own proper glory and virtue. 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.

[leoxiii]

I am just making the point that Christ did indeed found a Church and that He gave to His Church divine components.

this is a good example of how mistranslating the biblical words used as "church" changes the meaning.

He founded an assembly of faith. not an organization or institution with a hierarchy lording it over the laity

We can meet in buildings and have Pastors, elders, deacons that fit the biblical mandate without having a religion that manipulates and controls the saints through fiat of greco-church theological redefining of terms.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member. 28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors? 30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

[nebula]

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member. 28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors? 30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

Doctors?????!!

Exactly what Bible are you using?