Were the Twelve and the Seventy Unique ?

[OneLight]

Sorry for the late reply Franky, I just noticed this post.

"Has Jesus personally come to you and chosen you, as He did the original 12 and Paul? I agree that we are apostles, as the Greek meaning means "one sent". The question is who has sends us? The church we attend? Was it a personal invitation given to you, by a personal appearance of Christ? There is a difference. People who believe that the offices are the same today, especially Apostleship, having the exact same authority as those who were personally sent by Christ, are the reason for so much false teachings coming from false apostles."

In order to accomplish what Jesus instructed them to do , all "sent ones" must perform the exact same tasks, nothing the 12 did can be omitted today. We can just do more in quantity than they did.

You should consider the fact that the original 12 disciples were personally chosen by Jesus while He was ministering on earth, those whom the Father personally gave Him. Even though it is true that we are all called by the same God, we were not called in the same manner, neither did we sit on the personal teachings of Christ. There is a difference that we can not comprehend for scripture is silent on all that they would of learned, for even John wrote John 21:25 "And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen." Because of this, we can not ever say that we are even close to the understanding they had, for we can not have the same understanding. The Apostles were special. By saying that we must do the same, you are placing a burden that nobody will ever be able to accomplish. If what you say was true, why is it that we do not hear about all the healing being done today, let alone the raising from the dead? Would they not, through the love of Christ, be in the hospitals where the healing would be proof where those, who are professionals in the field, could witness and confirm, leaving no doubt to the authenticity of the miracles?

Has Jesus personally come to me ? Yes He has. The new birth is a supernatural event where I accepted His call, by His Holy Spirit, who is just as real as Jesus Himself, He said that, when He told the disciples that He must leave them, but that He would send the Comforter.

So, are you saying that you saw Jesus in person and heard his audible voice as the Apostles did?

Jesus did not even hint that the work of the Comforter would be any different than His.

If you take the time to understand all that is in the scripture about the Helper, you would have a different opinion. The Helper, in John 14, is stated to teach us all things, yet, how well do we comprehend and retain all that He will teach? Let's use our simple school system as an example. Can a grade school student understand quantum physics, or do they first have to step through many years of teaching to even get to a place where they understand basic algebra? It is the comprehension of the subject, and the ability to retain previously lessons, of the one learning that sets the pace of the teaching. Just because God tells us that the Helper will teach us all things, He did not mean that He would just dump it on us all at once. If the world takes the time needed to bring the student up to par, how much more would our Father ensure that we understood before He advanced us to the next lesson? You give people too much credit.

Who sends us ? How could one ask such a question ? The Lord God sends us. It's the Trinity.

Again, you fail to see that the Apostles were "personally" sent by Jesus, in person, after they sat under all the teachings that Jesus gave. We, no matter how you try to word it, were not. You have to rightfully divide scripture to get a fuller understanding of this if you are to truly understand His word, and not depend on the teachings of man who teach the lie that we are the same as the Apostles.

In a face to face discussion recently on this subject, I was asked the question, "Could you write a book in the new testament, as the true apostle Matthew did.?

My answer was yes, The Holy Spirit can write through me the same as He did Matthew.

Luke wrote a book, and he was not listed among the twelve.

Luke had first hand information. We do not. We can not even understand the simplest instructions of the Holy Spirit, let alone be trusted to write a book for His word. Be careful to not become to vain in your understanding, placing yourself into an election and calling that has not been assigned to you

The reason this topic has drawn so much fire is that it is the root belief that created cessationism , which has divided the body of Christ for centuries, and still does today.

The unanswered question today is,

"Why do followers of Christ today require less power and delegated authority now, than they did at first."

The reason why God has not set forth the number that should be sent is due to the lack of discipline ,and retention of understanding, today's followers have in Him. Look at how people today do not take the time required to even have a personal base of understanding in His word, but rather, they sit under someone, being taught by them, yet do not make much of a personal effort to gain the knowledge required to be a mature Christian. Would you give a child your car keys when you know that the child has no idea about how to properly handle the automobile outside of watching someone else use one, or would you ensure that the child has the proper understanding before you handed the child something that has the ability to kill?

The reason why this body is so unhealthy is that too many who should not do, do. They twist scripture to mean what it is not meant to mean, causing false teachings which is an abomination to God and a huge stumbling block to the growth of His people. Be careful what you try to teach, for scripture tells us that those who teach will be held at a higher accountability then those who do not.

[OneLight]

I can't argue with that OneLight. I agree with your assessment. I have nothing either theologically or emotionally invested in that particular Verse. I think the following Verse is much more plain.

(Mark 16:17-18 [KJV])

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

You good folks can't explain away every verse that promises power to the believer. Or you have certainly got your work cut out for you.

Nobody is trying to say that the Holy Spirit is not working today, nor are we trying to explain away anything. We are trying to rightfully divide scripture for maturity in Him to those who do not understand. That is what we all should do to our younger brothers and sisters in Him.

Oh how misleading the word power is. I have sat and listened to more then on person focus on the "power" and not on the One who gives the gifts that they see hold this power. The way people looks at the term is rather scary, as if they become superman or something, with power. People are drawn to the thought of having power and place the focus on becoming powerful and not on Christ. Have you not heard that we are to humble ourselves and allow Him to work in and through us, removing any claim of personally being powerful? The power is His, not ours. Refocus on Christ rightfully and do not be drawn by the lure of power.

[Fez]

I can't argue with that OneLight. I agree with your assessment. I have nothing either theologically or emotionally invested in that particular Verse. I think the following Verse is much more plain.

(Mark 16:17-18 [KJV])

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

You good folks can't explain away every verse that promises power to the believer. Or you have certainly got your work cut out for you.

Nobody is trying to say that the Holy Spirit is not working today, nor are we trying to explain away anything. We are trying to rightfully divide scripture for maturity in Him to those who do not understand. That is what we all should do to our younger brothers and sisters in Him.

Oh how misleading the word power is. I have sat and listened to more then on person focus on the "power" and not on the One who gives the gifts that they see hold this power. The way people looks at the term is rather scary, as if they become superman or something, with power. People are drawn to the thought of having power and place the focus on becoming powerful and not on Christ. Have you not heard that we are to humble ourselves and allow Him to work in and through us, removing any claim of personally being powerful? The power is His, not ours. Refocus on Christ rightfully and do not be drawn by the lure of power.

Lord, I have no power! But what I am, when God so decides, is a conduit for His power to work through me. And I am only supeconductive when I am in the Spirit, and free of stumbling blocks. The power that any believer feels is that of God's and it cannot be stored, or used when one feels like it.

[lekh l'kha]

Shiloh,

This is denomination talking here, not scripture. The mission is the same great commission, the 12 and 70 could not go " into all the world ", it would take those who followed them , and on , and on, to accomplish this great commission, all believers are fully equipped.

We haven't been given two sets of instructions on reaching the world for Christ, we have been given ONE SET OF INSTRUCTIONS, and one instructor, Jesus.

I have not "reasoned" my belief, I have read it in plain words, red words by the way, in the New Testament, for instance, Mark 16

15. "And He said to them, "Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to all creation, he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved, and he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. And these signs shall accompany those who have believed; in My name, they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents and if they drink any deadly poison; it will not injure them; they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover."

Jesus gave them these instructions before He ascended to the Father.

Franky, check the passage of the above quote - He was speaking to the eleven, just after he reproached them for not believing those who said He had risen from the dead:

"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they (the eleven) believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

And he said unto them (the eleven), Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, (the eleven) he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they (the eleven) went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them (the eleven), and confirming the word with signs following. Amen." (Mar 16:14-20).

Now compare all the above with the following facts:

(a) Of the only ten records of or references to signs, wonders and miracles from Acts through to Jude, nine of them were performed by the apostles (+ Barnabus when he was in the company of Paul); and one of them was performed by Stephen before he was martyred; and

(b) The New Testament calls miracles, signs and wonders "the signs of an apostle" twice, while there are five prophetic references to the coming of false prophets performing miracles, signs and wonders; and one prophetic reference to the miracles, signs and lying wonders of the man of lawlessness.

All of these BIBLICAL facts + the context of Mark 16: 14-20 shows that when Jesus said, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover", He was speaking only about THE ELEVEN.

And it actually happened - not only did THE ELEVEN perform signs, wonders and miracles (which the New Testament calls "the signs of AN APOSTLE"), but we read about THIS happening to one of the apostles:

"... And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand. And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live. And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm. Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god." (Act 28:3-6).

Isn't the BIBLICAL record enough to show you that there most certainly is a distinction between the power that the twelve and the 70 were given, and Christians being able to pray for one another's healing?

Lekh

[Guest shiloh357]

And that supernatural environment is the Kingdom of Heaven, and it has never changed , your theology has it changing depending on who brings it to hand.

The Kingdom of God is in the heart of all true believers who have been born again. The supernatural is not the primary characteristic of the Kingdom of God. Again, no one is denying that God moves supernaturally through believers in our day.

Jesus said pray "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is in Heaven." And Jesus demonstrated what the earth is like when the Kingdom is at hand. He said "Tell John, the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor have the gospel preached to them."

This is the environment of the Kingdom of Heaven, always the same, regardless of who ushers it in.

The Kingdom of Heaven is a lot more than miracles. Seems that you are a bit lopsided. No one here is denying the gifts of the Spirit operate today.

[JCISGD]

deleted due to double post.

[JCISGD]

A man by the name of Smith Wigglesworth from the Uk in the early 1900s came to NZ and the news papers reported the raising from of a dead man in the wellington town hall. Among many other miracles and healings, Smith raised a number of others from the dead also during his lifetime.

This man was never found in error or moral defficiency to the time his ministry began to the time of his death to my knowledge. Once when he prayed in a meeting of ministers, they all ended up crawling out the door as they could not stay when the presence of God came into the room, but Smith was seen hands raised basking in Gods presence.

While its true Jesus said not everyone who does miracles is of Him, He did not also say none were. He only said that some were workers of lawlessness, which is different than being a worker of miracles.

We are to have power but not before purity.

[Ovedya]

A man by the name of Smith Wigglesworth from the Uk in the early 1900s came to NZ and the news papers reported the raising from of a dead man in the wellington town hall. Among many other miracles and healings, Smith raised a number of others from the dead also during his lifetime.

This man was never found in error or moral defficiency to the time his ministry began to the time of his death to my knowledge. Once when he prayed in a meeting of ministers, they all ended up crawling out the door as they could not stay when the presence of God came into the room, but Smith was seen hands raised basking in Gods presence.

While its true Jesus said not everyone who does miracles is of Him, He did not also say none were. He only said that some were workers of lawlessness, which is different than being a worker of miracles.

We are to have power but not before purity.

I don't understand the point. I've been away for a long time. Are you saying that God's power is only granted to those who are pure? What then does it take to be "pure" by God's standard? Also, could Wigglesworth not have been a worker of lawlessness?

[Franky67]

QUOTE

In a face to face discussion recently on this subject, I was asked the question, "Could you write a book in the new testament, as the true apostle Matthew did.?

My answer was yes, The Holy Spirit can write through me the same as He did Matthew.

Luke wrote a book, and he was not listed among the twelve.

Luke had first hand information. We do not. We can not even understand the simplest instructions of the Holy Spirit, let alone be trusted to write a book for His word. Be careful to not become to vain in your understanding, placing yourself into an election and calling that has not been assigned to you quote by onelight

First hand or Holy Spirit, absolutely no difference with our supernatural God, He can anoint by His Holy Spirit today just as effectively as Jesus did in person, when He sent out the 12 or70.

You're saying we are all today at a disadvantage, because we were not there in person with Jesus. In no way has God set that up.

You say we can not even understand the simplest instruction from the Holy Spirit. I suggest you reread the 2 chapter of 1 corinthians especially verse 16, which says "we have the mind of Christ"

So Yes I can write whatever God tells me to write, and if so it would not be in a spirit of vanity, but in the knowledge that it would be for His glory, if done with a pure heart. God is a "heart checker".

You all who have assumed that God has given a greater wherewithal to accomplish the tasks given the ones with Jesus, than all other followers since that time.

You have made an assumption, because there is not one teaching along those lines, ie, the uniqueness of the twelve and seventy apostles. in the entire new testament. There is, however a very structured teaching of this belief in some of the major theological seminaries.

One verse by Paul in 2 Cor 12:12 "The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles."

This one verse does not establish this assumption as truth. Jesus was very well aware of those who would follow after the first apostles, because He counted them in His prayer in John 17:20 where He prayed for those later, who would believe through their word.

If this were truth, then the Holy Spirit is silent as to instructions for the rest of us. We would have instructions in the Word of God on how to spread the gospel, without confirmation by God's power.

But some seminaries are not silent, their lessons, teach, "now that we have the canon, the signs and wonders are no longer necessary, we have the printed bible." No, Jesus never taught that, neither should man teach it.

So what do they teach, How to preach a sermon, how to fill "the preaching hour" with great words of wisdom learned at school. Christianity has evolved into listening to preachers.

Acts 4,, Peter and John prayed that when they spoke the word of God with confidence, the Lord would extend His hand to heal, and that signs and wonders would take place in the name of Jesus. That is the way it should be , but it has evolved downward to mere words.

Now it's clear why some denomination preachers quote Paul more than they quote Jesus. It's "Paul said this" and "Paul said that" No wonder, they don't believe Jesus was talking to us today. Pity

The world is more populated today, than it was 2000 years ago, we need to be equipped with at least as much as the first apostles were.

Where faith has not been trampled by man's teaching, God is proving the lessons taught by Jesus, and signs and wonders are taking place. Check out Rolland and Heidi baker's ministry in Africa.

[lekh l'kha]

A man by the name of Smith Wigglesworth from the Uk in the early 1900s came to NZ and the news papers reported the raising from of a dead man in the wellington town hall. Among many other miracles and healings, Smith raised a number of others from the dead also during his lifetime.

This man was never found in error or moral defficiency to the time his ministry began to the time of his death to my knowledge. Once when he prayed in a meeting of ministers, they all ended up crawling out the door as they could not stay when the presence of God came into the room, but Smith was seen hands raised basking in Gods presence.

While its true Jesus said not everyone who does miracles is of Him, He did not also say none were. He only said that some were workers of lawlessness, which is different than being a worker of miracles.

We are to have power but not before purity.

1. How does Wigglesworth's healings square up with the Biblical fact that of the only ten records of and references to the miracles in the first century, nine were performed at the hand of the apostles and one by Stephen, who was later martyred?

2. Why does Mark 16: 14-15 specifically state that Jesus was speaking to THE ELEVEN, and why does verse 20 specifically state that THEY (the eleven) "went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with THEM (the eleven) with signs following after the Lord had commanded THEM (the eleven) to "go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature"?

3. Newspapers ALWAYS report on sensational stories, because they know sensationalism sells. The newspaper reports were no doubt neutral as to the validity of the claims of Wigglesworth. Are newspaper reports proof that these healings and resurrections of the dead actually occurred?

4. Have you met any of the descendants of the people Wigglesworth raised from the dead?

5. Is there any difference between Wigllesworth's "healing meetings" where people were "miraculously healed", and "healing meetings" of today by people like Benny Hinn?

6. Are we commanded to follow Christ, or Wigglesworth, Benny Hinn, etc? Must a blog now be started about all those in the church across the road from me who prayed for a woman recently who was on her deathbed and was miraculously healed after their prayers? Are they not also in the same league as Wigglesworth, since their prayer resulted in the healing of a woman who the doctor had said would not make it beyond the day everyone was praying for her? Or was it JESUS who healed her?

Funny, the people who prayed for this woman just recently didn't take any credit for her healing or allow any attention to be drawn to them because the woman was healed - and nobody was pressurized to give any money to pay for "their traveling expenses and other costs".

Lekh