Were the Twelve and the Seventy Unique ?

[Franky67]

Your understanding of Colossians 2:9-10 is wrong. You can not take one verse and claim that we all have the same authority in Christ as He gave a few.

Yes, I can if there is no teaching to the contrary.

1 Cor 12:12-30 does not negate my statement that every one of us is given the potential of fulfilling any task that God may give us. Any teaching to the contrary places doubt into the body of Christ.

There is no teaching in God's Word that tells us that some may have, or had , more delegated authority, than others are given.

You say my understanding of Colossians 2:10 is wrong.

Paul is speaking to the believers at Colossae, telling them, that in Christ, they have been made complete.

He did not mention any exceptions in what they had received, the inheritance is the same for every believer.

Galatians 3:14 says "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the gentiles so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit, through faith"

And Galatians 3:29, says " If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

There are no exceptions as to what's in the promise. The promise is the Kingdom of Heaven, there is only one Kingdom, and only one inheritance.

Yes, God does assign different tasks in the Body of Christ, but we must have the confidence that whatever our task, He will, by His Holy Spirit residing in us, that we can accomplish whatever He tells us to do.

I have more then once pointed you to 1 Corinthians 12:12-30 where it clearly states:

Unity and Diversity in One Body

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body

[OneLight]

Your understanding of Colossians 2:9-10 is wrong. You can not take one verse and claim that we all have the same authority in Christ as He gave a few.

Yes, I can if there is no teaching to the contrary.

1 Cor 12:12-30 does not negate my statement that every one of us is given the potential of fulfilling any task that God may give us. Any teaching to the contrary places doubt into the body of Christ.

There is no teaching in God's Word that tells us that some may have, or had , more delegated authority, than others are given.

You say my understanding of Colossians 2:10 is wrong.

Paul is speaking to the believers at Colossae, telling them, that in Christ, they have been made complete.

He did not mention any exceptions in what they had received, the inheritance is the same for every believer.

Galatians 3:14 says "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the gentiles so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit, through faith"

And Galatians 3:29, says " If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

There are no exceptions as to what's in the promise. The promise is the Kingdom of Heaven, there is only one Kingdom, and only one inheritance.

Yes, God does assign different tasks in the Body of Christ, but we must have the confidence that whatever our task, He will, by His Holy Spirit residing in us, that we can accomplish whatever He tells us to do.

Then, you refuse to see scripture as true. EricH has pointed out that God built a foundation upon the Apostles where Christ is the cornerstone. Do you think that God is going to continue to build onto His original foundation to appease people who believe that everyone has the same authority that Jesus gave? 1 Corinthians 12 DOES state that the Holy Spirit will give gifts as He see fit and assign an office to whom He chooses and not everyone is given the office of an Apostle. You are twisting scripture to fit your belief.

I have more then once pointed you to 1 Corinthians 12:12-30 where it clearly states:

Unity and Diversity in One Body

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[c] one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best[d] gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

The gifts today are still active, but are given by the Holy Spirit according to His will. The difference between when Jesus gave authority and when the Holy Spirit gives gifts is that the authority Jesus gave was in full measure, but the Holy Spirit gives a gift to you and a gift to me and is not the full authority Jesus gave.

No difference in Jesus, and His Holy Spirit, what Jesus gave the apostles, His Holy Spirit gives in like manner. I say that because there is no teaching to the contrary in the bible.

No. Jesus gave full authority when He gave it. The Holy Spirit, as proven in the scripture I have already given you, gives according to His will, and not all to everyone. You are believing a lie, my friend. Scripture does not lie. Reread 1 Corinthians 12 again, slowly, and consider what it is saying, not trying to fit it to your understanding.

Today, there are denominations that do not believe that the Holy Spirit still gives gifts. From what I have been told, they believe that 1 Corinthians 13:10 - But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. - means that when we received the cannon (that which is perfect) that which is in part (gifts) were done away with. I see this verse as the fulfillment of righteousness we will have when we are with Him, for our righteousness is now in part, but when we are with Him (through death) that which is in part (the righteousness we have here in this life) will be done away with and we will become complete in Him.

You are correct, it takes the whole word of God to understand how He is working today, not just a doctrine based on one verse and the desire to have the best gift. If what you say was true, tell me how many you have raised from the dead, how many hospitals you have cleared out through healings. It just is not there, Brother.

This is the classic example of forming a theology on the things seen, and not on God's word. I said before, these things are not happening because the body of Christ has an abundance of teaching that these things have passed away.

"And these signs will accompany those who have believed.........."

You can say that this was only spoken to the 12, but you must put words in, that were not there in order to teach that.

Had a man say to me, "if it don't work, it ain't the word." Wrong, it's the word regardless of what happens.

You theory is one of pride and vanity, believing that you have the same authority of the Apostles where scripture clearly points out that we will be given a gift(s) as He sees fit, not according to what Jesus gave to a few. Tell me the truth, do you believe you are an Apostle?

[Franky67]

You theory is one of pride and vanity, believing that you have the same authority of the Apostles where scripture clearly points out that we will be given a gift(s) as He sees fit, not according to what Jesus gave to a few. Tell me the truth, do you believe you are an Apostle?

I did not exist at that time, but many today believe there are modern day apostles, so yes I could be an apostle, because unlike you, I believe I have received the fullness of the inheritance.

I have not said a word of judgment against anyone here, but have received a measure of judgment for the things I believe. Is it out of anger because of an opposing belief, that you would call me vain and pridefull, or do you consider yourself my judge ?

Another question came to mind,

Do you believe that Paul was the last person ever to receive a revelation from Jesus, and then having been taught by Him?

Paul never saw Jesus face to face, yet all Paul knew about the Messiah came by the Holy Spirit.

Do you really think that The Holy Spirit has been silent ever since Paul?

All that the Holy Spirit speaks today must agree with scripture. He helps us to understand the word.

[OneLight]

You theory is one of pride and vanity, believing that you have the same authority of the Apostles where scripture clearly points out that we will be given a gift(s) as He sees fit, not according to what Jesus gave to a few. Tell me the truth, do you believe you are an Apostle?

I did not exist at that time, but many today believe there are modern day apostles, so yes I could be an apostle, because unlike you, I believe I have received the fullness of the inheritance.

You see Franky, I do believe in the offices spoken of in scripture, but unlike you, I know the gifts and calling God has placed on my life. With God, there is no "could be". He lets you know through His Spirit.

I have not said a word of judgment against anyone here, but have received a measure of judgment for the things I believe. Is it out of anger because of an opposing belief, that you would call me vain and pridefull, or do you consider yourself my judge ?

What I judge is your understanding of scripture and the attitude you bring it forth in. You can be assured that I am not mad at you one bit. I am trying to reason with you. May I suggest that if you feel hurt, reread what I said to see if it is condemning or just straight forward.

Another question came to mind,

Do you believe that Paul was the last person ever to receive a revelation from Jesus, and then having been taught by Him?

I believe that Paul was the last Apostle in the time of the first church.

Paul never saw Jesus face to face, yet all Paul knew about the Messiah came by the Holy Spirit.

On the road to Damascus, Paul encountered the risen Christ in a face to face encounter. I will agree that it was not the same as the other Apostles, for Paul was not called until after Christ rose from the dead. The revelation of Jesus came from God, yes. Three years Paul sat under such teachings, but only after he was called personally by Christ.

Do you really think that The Holy Spirit has been silent ever since Paul?

All that the Holy Spirit speaks today must agree with scripture. He helps us to understand the word.

If you read back through this thread you will see that I have, many times, stated that the Holy Spirit is active today in every way. What I am having trouble getting you to realize that the foundation has been set by those Jesus personally called, and Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. The office of an Apostle is not the same as it was in the first century church and never has been set up to be that way. Reread what EricH posted here. I agree with what he said, and he said it better then I could.

[JCISGD]

Sorry Onelight but i dont see why you are taking issue with Franky`s attitude, he seems to be just stating his opinion to me. Its unavoidable and natural that you both say each other is wrong in their opinion, imo.

If Franky is wrong when says he has the authority to cast out demons in Jesus name, then i guess he will flee naked and wounded when he tries to cast them out.

Which raises an interesting point. If only the Apostles could cast out demons, whos going to do it now that they are gone? or have the demons stopped inhabiting people?

Apologies if you have answered this earlier or im adding to your words, thats not my intention.

[KC02]

If I thought that God called me as an apostle (which I do not), I would keep it to myself. Nobody needs the hassle of defending it. It doesn't seem crystal clear if apostles were to end with Paul, but I think that is a reasonable conclusion from my own Bible study.

As Eric stated,

As I said, the issue is one of them having a unique role in God's redemptive plan. They were foundational. The scriptures seem to indicate the foundational nature of their ministry:

I think it adds support that apostles did have a special purpose in starting and maintaining the early church. Of course, some want to go much farther and say that all miracles ended too, which the Bible doesn't say. In fact, I don't recall lots of miracles in Paul's ministry. Off the top of my head, his call and conversion seemed to be the biggest miracle recorded concerning him. That, within itself, seems to debunk claims that the apostles had all of the super or unique gifts/miracles.

You theory is one of pride and vanity, believing that you have the same authority of the Apostles where scripture clearly points out that we will be given a gift(s) as He sees fit, not according to what Jesus gave to a few. Tell me the truth, do you believe you are an Apostle?

I did not exist at that time, but many today believe there are modern day apostles, so yes I could be an apostle, because unlike you, I believe I have received the fullness of the inheritance.

I have not said a word of judgment against anyone here, but have received a measure of judgment for the things I believe. Is it out of anger because of an opposing belief, that you would call me vain and pridefull, or do you consider yourself my judge ?

Another question came to mind,

Do you believe that Paul was the last person ever to receive a revelation from Jesus, and then having been taught by Him?

Paul never saw Jesus face to face, yet all Paul knew about the Messiah came by the Holy Spirit.

Do you really think that The Holy Spirit has been silent ever since Paul?

All that the Holy Spirit speaks today must agree with scripture. He helps us to understand the word.

[Fez]

I am no apostle, and I agree with OneLight on the subject, but this is what I try and obey:-

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

So apostle no. But disciple perhaps.

[OneLight]

Sorry Onelight but i dont see why you are taking issue with Franky`s attitude, he seems to be just stating his opinion to me. Its unavoidable and natural that you both say each other is wrong in their opinion, imo.

If Franky is wrong when says he has the authority to cast out demons in Jesus name, then i guess he will flee naked and wounded when he tries to cast them out.

Which raises an interesting point. If only the Apostles could cast out demons, whos going to do it now that they are gone? or have the demons stopped inhabiting people?

Apologies if you have answered this earlier or im adding to your words, thats not my intention.

The attitude I was talking about was his continued accusations that I did not believe in the gifts today. This issue is the belief that we all have the same authority as the Apostles, which he believes. Scripture tells us that we have authority in Christ, but only what is given us through the Holy Spirit. Franky has been stating that, like the Apostles, we have all the gifts.

[lekh l'kha]

According to all early Christian and Church history, John was the last surviving apostle when he received the Revelation, which begins:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ..." and ends,

"... If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book. And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book." (Rev 22:18-19).

Whose Revelation?

The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

It's saturated with sevens, a number which represents completeness, because the Hebrew root word shaba (which means "to be complete") is the root-word for shabat (sabbath) and shib'ah (seven). The Bible (the revelation of God to man) opens with a cycle of seven and is completed with a book starurated with sevens and cycles of seven.

The final Revelation of God to man was given by Jesus Christ to the apostle John, in the days when he was the last surviving apostle. It was not given to a non-apostle.

I wonder why?

Lekh

[Guest yod]

That is the Revelation of the final time....not the final time there will be revelation.

Next point?