Tribulation Saints

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings One Way,

It seems our prior thread has drifted and added to the confusion of LadyC, so I thought it more appropriate to start one here:

Rev 18:4 is in reference to tribulation saints. That is, those who come to faith during the tribulation. The church is and has been gone.

Rev 18:8 is in reference to the great harlot, Mystery Babylon. You can reference back to Rev. 17.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Okay, you say that Rev 18:4 refers to the "tribulation saints". So we find them described here:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

First of all, these are not just Jews, but from all nations, kindreds and people and tongues. Now as we can see these saints "made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb". Which of course means that they were saved through the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now using your eschatology, the "saints of God" shall NOT suffer the "great tribulation", so Rev 7:14 is a lie.

Paul has set forth the "process" of salvation:

Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

So without anyone on this earth evangelizing since your eschatology says there won't be any Christian left, you also prove the above to be a lie.

and I suppose according to your eschatology the following MUST be a lie as well:

Luke 15:4-6 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

In the furthest reaches of my soul, I just can't imagine our Lord visiting this earth and leaving EVEN "ONE" of His sheep behind, let alone MULTITUDES BEYOND COUNT. If you could just show me ONE verse that says Jesus is going to LEAVE BEHIND any of His saints, you would make me most happy.

Oh, I forgot, the "tribulation saints" don't get to KNOW they are "saved from God's wrath (great tribulation), now do they? If they DID, then they would be calling God a liar now, wouldn't they? The rest of the Bible MUST NOT apply to them as well.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[One Way]

Greetings One Way,

It seems our prior thread has drifted and added to the confusion of LadyC, so I thought it more appropriate to start one here

Agreed

Okay, you say that Rev 18:4 refers to the "tribulation saints". So we find them described here:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I agree. This is not the Church. These are those who have been saved during the GT. We do see the Church in Rev: 5:8-9:

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The angels and elders of God are there, too, in verses 5:11-12:

Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

So, if the angels and elders are right there in Rev 5:9-12, with all of these saints, why is it in Rev 7:13-15 THE ELDERS DO NOT KNOW WHO THE SAINTS ARE IN REV. 7:9?

Well, fortunately, THEY ANSWER IT FOR US.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? (MY NOTE: certainly sounds like they don't recognize them from Rev. 5:9, doesn't it?)

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

First of all, these are not just Jews, but from all nations, kindreds and people and tongues. Now as we can see these saints "made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb". Which of course means that they were saved through the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I agree. The 144,000 witnesses will evangelize more than just the Jews. Many, many gentiles will be saved during the GT. The people saved during the GT are not the Church. They are not the Bride of Christ.

See this:

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

This crowd of tribulation saints serve the Lord in heaven.

The Church is served by the Lord.

Luk 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he (the Lord) shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

This is our God, the Servant King. He calls us all to follow Him. And to give our lives as a daily offering... of worship to the Servant King.

Praise Him!

Now using your eschatology, the "saints of God" shall NOT suffer the "great tribulation", so Rev 7:14 is a lie.

Negative. As stated above, there are many "saints" of God who are not "the Church." For example, John the Baptist was a saint of God. A mighty one. But, guess what:

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Now, did Jesus say in Mat 11:11 that John the Baptist was not "a saint?" No. Jesus says that the least in the "kingdom of heaven" is greater than he. This is a clear reference to Dispensationalism. Not everyone who believes in Jesus has an equal position in the kingdom. This is a great mystery of God. John the Baptist was NOT in the Church, yet he obviously is a saved person who will be in heaven. John the Baptist falls under the Dispensation of the Law and Prophets.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Do you see Jesus' comparison of "the law and the prophets" and "the kingdom of God?" He makes them to be separate dispensations. The "kingdom of God" was preached when? After "the law and the prophets," i.e. after John (the Baptist).

Paul has set forth the "process" of salvation:

Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

So without anyone on this earth evangelizing since your eschatology says there won't be any Christian left, you also prove the above to be a lie.

Negative. There will be many people who have been preached to by Christian friends about the rapture, who, when they see the disappearance of many, will be convinced and will surrender their lives to the Lord.

Also, the 144,000 ultra-witnesses will be preaching their tails off! The 2 great witnesses will also be proclaiming. Through these 3 avenues many will come to faith, and will be slain by the Antichrist because he (the AC) will make war with them. This is who we see in Rev. 7:9, etc.

and I suppose according to your eschatology the following MUST be a lie as well:

Luke 15:4-6 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

In the furthest reaches of my soul, I just can't imagine our Lord visiting this earth and leaving EVEN "ONE" of His sheep behind, let alone MULTITUDES BEYOND COUNT. If you could just show me ONE verse that says Jesus is going to LEAVE BEHIND any of His saints, you would make me most happy.

First, in the rapture the Lord doesn't "visit the earth." It happens in the air.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Second, none are lost. Don't you see them in Rev. 7:9?

Oh, I forgot, the "tribulation saints" don't get to KNOW they are "saved from God's wrath (great tribulation), now do they? If they DID, then they would be calling God a liar now, wouldn't they? The rest of the Bible MUST NOT apply to them as well.

I don't quite understand what you are saying here.

But, the tribulation saints go through the tribulation, for that is where they come to faith.

Sorry, they can't hop in the race at the 11th hour and claim every promise in the Bible. Now, we do know that they will be saved, just as we will. Fully and completely.

Mat 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

Mat 20:11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

Mat 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

Mat 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

Mat 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Salvation will be complete unto all.

Blessings...

[Guest LadyC]

It seems our prior thread has drifted and added to the confusion of LadyC, so I thought it more appropriate to start one here:

just butting in here.... i'm so EASILY confused these days!!!

anyway, thanks for starting a new topic to continue the discussion... seems like lately LOTS of threads have gotten way off topic, but you're the first that's been willing to actually "fix" it!

[One Way]

One more note of distinction between the Church, the Bride of Christ, and the tribulation saints that I want to point out.

In Rev.3:21 Jesus says that His Church will sit on the throne with Him.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The body of believers, those that come out of the GT, in Rev 7:9 stand before (in front of) the throne.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

These tribulation saints are not the Church. These in Rev 7:9 are different from those in Rev 5:9, else John and the elders would have recognized them.

So, the Church sits on the throne.

And the tribulation saints stands before the throne.

Blessings...

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings One Way,

I hope I can keep this dialogue civil, but to be honest, your responses really grieve me.

Okay, you say that Rev 18:4 refers to the "tribulation saints". So we find them described here:

Rev 7:9; 7:13-14

I agree. This is not the Church. These are those who have been saved during the GT. We do see the Church in Rev: 5:8-9:

Rev 5:8-10

The angels and elders of God are there, too, in verses 5:11-12:

Rev 5:11-12

So, if the angels and elders are right there in Rev 5:9-12, with all of these saints, why is it in Rev 7:13-15 THE ELDERS DO NOT KNOW WHO THE SAINTS ARE IN REV. 7:9?

Well, fortunately, THEY ANSWER IT FOR US.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? (MY NOTE: certainly sounds like they don't recognize them from Rev. 5:9, doesn't it?)

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

You ask why the ELDERS DO NOT KNOW WHO THE SAINTS ARE. This is a rhetorical question and the ELDER in question ANSWERED John as to WHO they were.

You mention the fact that "they shall reign on this earth", and of course they shall - WHEN Christ begins HIS reign they shall also reign with Him, just as ALL the saints of God in this age as well as those of the time of the Great Tribulation.

Do you see how you must omit and twist the scriptures in order to "make them fit your eschatology"?

First of all, these are not just Jews, but from all nations, kindreds and people and tongues. Now as we can see these saints "made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb". Which of course means that they were saved through the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I agree. The 144,000 witnesses will evangelize more than just the Jews. Many, many gentiles will be saved during the GT. The people saved during the GT are not the Church. They are not the Bride of Christ.

See this:

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

This crowd of tribulation saints serve the Lord in heaven.

The Church is served by the Lord.

Luk 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he (the Lord) shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

This is our God, the Servant King. He calls us all to follow Him. And to give our lives as a daily offering... of worship to the Servant King.

Praise Him![/

quote]

Perhaps you might want to consider who is referred to here:

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

I feel pretty confident now, as I have been studying this for years, that the 144,000 you are referring to are those whom Christ led to heaven when He ascended to the Father.

Further in regards to:

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

I believe sufficient evidence in the scriptures indicate that the 24 ELDERS shown here are OT priests and/or OT patriarchs.

So your equating the multitude of saints with any of these ELDERS is not revealed in the scriptures. Please study this out for yourself.

Now using your eschatology, the "saints of God" shall NOT suffer the "great tribulation", so Rev 7:14 is a lie.

Negative. As stated above, there are many "saints" of God who are not "the Church."

Can you PROVE this to me using the scriptures? It is a ridiculous statement.

For example, John the Baptist was a saint of God. A mighty one. But, guess what:

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

If this is all you get out of this verse, you are deeply in trouble. Jesus was speaking to:

Matthew 11:20-24 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: 21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Jesus was declaring that John the Baptist was GREATER than Moses, BUT "He who was least in the Kingdom of God was GREATER than even John". John was of the OT economy and was probably one of the ones who ascended with Jesus to the Father. Jesus NEVER declared that John was a "saint", although without a doubt he was one, but SO IS ALL THE BODY OF CHRIST ON THIS EARTH!

BTW, the Greek for "church" is "ekklesia", or more simply "the called out ones" so doesn't that ring a bell with you in regards to Revelations 18:4?

Now, did Jesus say in Mat 11:11 that John the Baptist was not "a saint?" No. Jesus says that the least in the "kingdom of heaven" is greater than he. This is a clear reference to Dispensationalism. Not everyone who believes in Jesus has an equal position in the kingdom. This is a great mystery of God. John the Baptist was NOT in the Church, yet he obviously is a saved person who will be in heaven. John the Baptist falls under the Dispensation of the Law and Prophets.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Do you see Jesus' comparison of "the law and the prophets" and "the kingdom of God?" He makes them to be separate dispensations. The "kingdom of God" was preached when? After "the law and the prophets," i.e. after John (the Baptist)

.

If you would only study what the "Kingdom of God" really means, you might conclude differently. It simply means, as regards to the Kingdom of God on this earth, where the presence of God dwells. The "Kingdom of God" has been around throughout the WHOLE Bible:

1 Samuel 13:13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.

Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Psalms 145:11 They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;

Psalms 145:13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

Paul has set forth the "process" of salvation:

Romans 10:14-15

So without anyone on this earth evangelizing since your eschatology says there won't be any Christian left, you also prove the above to be a lie.

Negative. There will be many people who have been preached to by Christian friends about the rapture, who, when they see the disappearance of many, will be convinced and will surrender their lives to the Lord.

Also, the 144,000 ultra-witnesses will be preaching their tails off! The 2 great witnesses will also be proclaiming. Through these 3 avenues many will come to faith, and will be slain by the Antichrist because he (the AC) will make war with them. This is who we see in Rev. 7:9, etc

.

Boy oh boy. There are so many false statements here, it would take all day to explain them to you. I have already pointed out who the 144,000 are. The two witness are actually two groups of people, and the Antichrist is a "spirit" and not one literal person, although the False Prophet is perhaps the one you may be thinking of.

and I suppose according to your eschatology the following MUST be a lie as well:

Luke 15:4-6

In the furthest reaches of my soul, I just can't imagine our Lord visiting this earth and leaving EVEN "ONE" of His sheep behind, let alone MULTITUDES BEYOND COUNT. If you could just show me ONE verse that says Jesus is going to LEAVE BEHIND any of His saints, you would make me most happy.

First, in the rapture the Lord doesn't "visit the earth." It happens in the air.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I hope by now that you know that I KNOW His appearance will be "in the air", I was being "general" in my remarks.

Second, none are lost. Don't you see them in Rev. 7:9?

You may not understand this, but Jesus has ONLY ONE FLOCK, it is composed of both Jew and Gentile (please read Eph 1-3), and He is NOT going to leave even ONE OF HIS behind when He makes His appearance ABOVE THE EARTH IN THE CLOUDS.

Oh, I forgot, the "tribulation saints" don't get to KNOW they are "saved from God's wrath (great tribulation), now do they? If they DID, then they would be calling God a liar now, wouldn't they? The rest of the Bible MUST NOT apply to them as well.

I don't quite understand what you are saying here.

But, the tribulation saints go through the tribulation, for that is where they come to faith.

Sorry, they can't hop in the race at the 11th hour and claim every promise in the Bible. Now, we do know that they will be saved, just as we will. Fully and completely

.

This is the most ridiculous statement yet, that ALL the saints of God DO NOT have the promise of God to not undergo God's wrath. It is written:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

So for 3 1/2 years you are saying that these multitude of saints have NO HOPE with which to encourage themselves, even as the worst tribulation that has ever come upon this world is happening to them. What foolishness. This is what you get when you do not understand the difference between tribulation and God's wrath.

Please, before responding, understand that it is the eschatology I am so disgusted with and not you. I feel that you have been led astray by men's doctrines regarding the end times. If you would set them aside and read and listen to ONLY the Bible, I believe God would straighten your eschatology out.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[One Way]

Greetings One Way,

I hope I can keep this dialogue civil, but to be honest, your responses really grieve me.

I don't understand why this might not remain "civil." ???

You ask why the ELDERS DO NOT KNOW WHO THE SAINTS ARE. This is a rhetorical question and the ELDER in question ANSWERED John as to WHO they were.

You are right. It was John that didn't recognize them. True. The elder asked a rhetorical question to which John couldn't

answer. But, John saw the multitude in Rev 5:9, so I'm not sure why he didn't know. I tried to clear that up in my 2nd post. Thanks for pointing that out.

You mention the fact that "they shall reign on this earth", and of course they shall - WHEN Christ begins HIS reign they shall also reign with Him

Correct. I never stated otherwise. We return with Christ at the 2nd coming.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Do you see how you must omit and twist the scriptures in order to "make them fit your eschatology"?

No, I don't see that. Please elaborate on that.

You never mentioned who is in Rev. 5:9 BEFORE THE GT BEGINS IN CHAPTER 6.

Revelation follows a very logical pattern. Built into it is it's own outline.

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

That is an outline of the entire book of Revelation.

The things which thou hast seen:

Chapter 1 - = The Resurrected Jesus

The things which are:

Chapters 2-3 -- The messages to the Church, the Church dispensation.

The things which shall be hereafter.

Chapters 4-5 - The rapture of the Church,

Chapters 6-19 - The GT,

Chapter 19 - at the end of chapter 19 we, the Bride of Christ, return with the Lord as He comes to establish His kingdom.

Chapter 20 - The Millenium

Chapter 21-22 - The new heaven and new earth

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

This crowd of tribulation saints serve the Lord in heaven.

The Church is served by the Lord.

Luk 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he (the Lord) shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

This is our God, the Servant King. He calls us all to follow Him. And to give our lives as a daily offering... of worship to the Servant King.

Praise Him!

Perhaps you might want to consider who is referred to here

You didn't address the marked difference in position between those serving and those being served.

Further in regards to:

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

I believe sufficient evidence in the scriptures indicate that the 24 ELDERS shown here are OT priests and/or OT patriarchs.

Incorrect. The OT patriarchs were all Jews... children of Israel, were they not? Then how come it says they are redeemed "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation?"

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Doesn't sound like only Jews to me... much less OT patriarchs. How many tongues, peoples, and blood did the partriarchs come from? Doesn't add up. Rather, it is US, the Church, who has been redeemed by the blood out of "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

Now using your eschatology, the "saints of God" shall NOT suffer the "great tribulation", so Rev 7:14 is a lie.

Can you PROVE this to me using the scriptures? It is a ridiculous statement.

I already did with John the Baptist. Please go re-read that. Are you saying every believer is part of the Church? If so, you need to do a study of the book of Hebrews and the Old vs. the New Convenant.

Plus, that would make Jesus incorrect here:

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

So, the church would be built.... FUTURE TENSE. "I will build..."

If this is all you get out of this verse, you are deeply in trouble. Jesus was speaking to

It doesn't negate the implication.

BTW, the Greek for "church" is "ekklesia", or more simply "the called out ones" so doesn't that ring a bell with you in regards to Revelations 18:4?

I understand the meaning of the word. I believe Rev 18:4 is where God is speaking to those who become believers in the Tribulation. Since, we see the Church already in heaven, in Rev. 5:9, before the GT begins.

In Rev 18:4 God says, " Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." This is obviously said to believers who are on the earth, else why the exhortation to "come out?"

If you would only study what the "Kingdom of God" really means, you might conclude differently. It simply means, as regards to the Kingdom of God on this earth, where the presence of God dwells. The "Kingdom of God" has been around throughout the WHOLE Bible

That may be true, in a strict sense, but that is not the context that Jesus was using. Or else He would have been saying in effect,

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least of them that are all around you is greater than he." That doesn't make too much sense.

Jesus was drawing a clear distinction between the law and the prophets and the kingdom of God. How can you possibly see it any other way?

Boy oh boy. There are so many false statements here, it would take all day to explain them to you.

Oh, do take the time to explain..

I have already pointed out who the 144,000 are.

You have alluded to what you think they are. But you have far from proven that. I think the context is clear that they are decendants of the tribes of Israel.

The two witness are actually two groups of people

Okay, now we're in the twighlight zone. This statement will have a marked affect on your credibility in any further discussion.

Where in the world do you derive that from? I see no reason to believe they are anything but 2 literal people.

Are you saying that 2 whole groups of people will all, simultaneously, lie in the streets of that great city, Jerusalem?

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

They have bodies and they will be killed. Sounds like literal people to me.

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Again, they have bodies. And, they will be denied burial.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

How many prophets? Two. Read that verse again. Two.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Again, so clear there is no way it can be anything but 2 literal witnesses.

And the Antichrist is a "spirit" and not one literal person, although the False Prophet is perhaps the one you may be thinking of.

Well then, who is this?

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Sounds like a man there, not a spirit.

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads

Sounds like a man here, too.

You may not understand this, but Jesus has ONLY ONE FLOCK, it is composed of both Jew and Gentile (please read Eph 1-3), and He is NOT going to leave even ONE OF HIS behind when He makes His appearance ABOVE THE EARTH IN THE CLOUDS.

You're referring to the end of Revelation 19, the 2nd coming, not the rapture of the Church.

You still need to go back and re-look at who those are in Rev. 5:8-9. They were redeemed "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." That cannot be OT patriarchs.

This is the most ridiculous statement yet, that ALL the saints of God DO NOT have the promise of God to not undergo God's wrath. It is written:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

I agree. God's wrath is twofold. 1) the GT on the Christ-rejecting world and 2)The Great Throne Judgment.

I think a better candidate for the most ridiculous statement was that the 2 witnesses are "groups of people."

So for 3 1/2 years you are saying that these multitude of saints have NO HOPE with which to encourage themselves, even as the worst tribulation that has ever come upon this world is happening to them. What foolishness. This is what you get when you do not understand the difference between tribulation and God's wrath.

I think you fail to understand the 70th week of Daniel and to whom it is directed. Do you even know that there is a 70th week left to be fulfilled?

Please, before responding, understand that it is the eschatology I am so disgusted with and not you. I feel that you have been led astray by men's doctrines regarding the end times. If you would set them aside and read and listen to ONLY the Bible, I believe God would straighten your eschatology out.

Well, then I should not listen to you, for starters!

Who is in Rev 5:9 "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation?"

PS. I guess I can see how this could get heated. Let's keep the statements clean so as not to provoke one another. I think I did that in my 1st response to you.. and I tried to maintain the same composure in this response, even though you came across as a little hostile and haughty.

Blessings...

[gypc]

Uh, if I'm not mistaken........no one gets saved during the great trib. If they do, please show me.

In his love.....

Brian

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Greetings One Way,

It seems our prior thread has drifted and added to the confusion of LadyC, so I thought it more appropriate to start one here:

Rev 18:4 is in reference to tribulation saints. That is, those who come to faith during the tribulation. The church is and has been gone.

Rev 18:8 is in reference to the great harlot, Mystery Babylon. You can reference back to Rev. 17.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Okay, you say that Rev 18:4 refers to the "tribulation saints". So we find them described here:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

First of all, these are not just Jews, but from all nations, kindreds and people and tongues. Now as we can see these saints "made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb". Which of course means that they were saved through the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now using your eschatology, the "saints of God" shall NOT suffer the "great tribulation", so Rev 7:14 is a lie.

Paul has set forth the "process" of salvation:

Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

So without anyone on this earth evangelizing since your eschatology says there won't be any Christian left, you also prove the above to be a lie.

and I suppose according to your eschatology the following MUST be a lie as well:

Luke 15:4-6 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

In the furthest reaches of my soul, I just can't imagine our Lord visiting this earth and leaving EVEN "ONE" of His sheep behind, let alone MULTITUDES BEYOND COUNT. If you could just show me ONE verse that says Jesus is going to LEAVE BEHIND any of His saints, you would make me most happy.

Oh, I forgot, the "tribulation saints" don't get to KNOW they are "saved from God's wrath (great tribulation), now do they? If they DID, then they would be calling God a liar now, wouldn't they? The rest of the Bible MUST NOT apply to them as well.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Amen Ernie some people just dont want to hear the truth. They want to hear something that will tickle their ears.

[One Way]

Uh, if I'm not mistaken........no one gets saved during the great trib. If they do, please show me.

In his love.....

Brian

Plenty of people get saved during the GT:

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

[Guest LCPGUY]

You know One Way, I was going to jump in the fray, but after seeing how well you