KINGDOM OF MESSIAH

[Smalcald]

3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a]

11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

The nation state of Isreal, the United States, Russia, Africa, all of it; everything; will be utterly burned up and laid bare. Scripture says that the heavens will disappear with a roar, it says everything will be destroyed.

Yes a New heaven and a new earth will follow, the home of righteousness, but it has nothing to do with our grubby little land squables over property that scripture says will be destroyed.

Hello, Smalcald.

Looking at 2Peter 3, seems like there's no literal millennium, doesn't it?

Unfortunately this is the only passage in the entire Bible which seems to point in that direction.

Ever tried preacticing sound hermeneutics with regard to this passage and instead of isloating it from the rest of the Bible, looking at the Bible as one whole, and reading other passages which might shed light on 2Peter3's seeming absence of a millennium to follow the return of Christ?

Nope. Evidently you haven't.

I'll talk more about your fallacy tomorrow. Haven't got more time now. Have a good day.

Lekh.

Scripture is clear, what does Christ predict will happen at the End?

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days

" 'the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

So we see that the passage in Pter is not in isolation at all.

[Axxman]

Well, you posted, and stated that the one who has proved his intellectual dishonesty by consistently ignoring the bulk of Biblical texts that disprove his pet theology, has proved his point, whereas the bulk of Biblical text disproving his pet theology have proved no point at all.

Now I dunno but I would say you gave yourself "a dog in this fight"

Actually...I don't have a dog in this fight because I still don't get what the big deal is on this topic that is virtually on the edge of exploding. My only point in posting was to say that as a bystander who was just reading through it was easier for me to see the point that one side was making. I'm sorry that I couldn't pick YOUR side of the debate...but I was honestly hoping that maybe my post would inspire you guys to explain yourselves better and explain why this is so important. Instead I was basically called a liar with selective memory...and then the race card was thrown down ...geesh....

[RebekahDavid]

Romans 10

1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 11

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

[Guest yod]

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for possession, so that you might speak of the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

(1Pe 2:9 MKJV)

Peter was the Apostle to who??? The jews! This book starts off by saying it is written to the Diaspora...the 12 tribes of Israel. So obviously, yes, they are a chosen generation whom we goyim are joined to. Thanks for pointing that out...

But you keep citing your opinions and cherry-picking single verses and misdirecting them out of context. That's so greek....

again...what's wrong with letting the Word say what it says instead of using theology to make it say what you want it to say? Why can't you just surrender to the simplicity of God's Word?

[Guest shiloh357]

You are wrong of course - Jesus was clearly saying the Kingdom was being taken away from national Israel and that is exactly what Holy Writ and history tells us.

No, Jesus was not saying that. The Parable was aimed at the Pharisees as the wicked husbandmen. Your error is that you are taking what Jesus said to the Pharisees and projecting it on to all of Israel Jesus was not condemning the nation, but the corrupt leadership and was telling them that their role as the caretakers (husbandmen) was being taken from them.

Jesus statement in Matt. 21:43 sums up the story of the wicked husbandmen who were hired to oversee the master's vineyards. The master sends his servants to retrive the fruit when it was time, and the husbandmen kill the servants everytime the master sends more. Finally, they even kill the master's son.

Jesus asked the Pharisees what the master would do. They replied that the master will kill the wicked husbandmen and rent the vineyard out to other husbandmen who will render the fruit. (21:40-41)

The parable was not a polemic against the vineyard (Israel), but against the wicked, corrupt leaders of Israel who would ultimately seek Jesus' death.

Your approach would mean that God is a liar and Israel ceased being a nation before Him. Your view is anti-Semitic in that it unfairly and inappropriately applies Jesus words to the Jews when actually Jesus was only aiming them at the corrupt leadership in Israel during that particular time period.

And once again we see the Anti-Semitic card being played. You see folks any doctrine that disagrees with hyper-dispensationalism is

[Guest shiloh357]

And yet you insist on reviving the Galatian heresy! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

You need to study a bit better. The Galatian heresy pertained to circumcision and conversion to the Jewish religion, which has nothing to do with the current issue in this thread.

[Guest shiloh357]

It certainly has.

All believers eagerly await the hope and promise of God of a New Heaven and new earth.

Jesus is the fulfillment of prophecy. God promised eternal life and an eternal Israel in Christ, we as gentiles should be extremely grateful to be grafted into this life and land.

But that land does not exist today, according to the scripture posted above and other scripture, the current earth will be destroyed.

See, none of that diminishes God's promises to Israel. The current earth will be renovated (not destroyed) but God's promises will not suddenly disappear with the current age we live in. The New Heavens and New Earth do not nullify God's promises to Israel.

I realize you have taken great pains in your posts to make those promises appear as unimportant an meaningless as possible, but your endeavors are fruitless.

Why would you say that? I have not posted very much on this thread, mainly just some scripture.

Jesus IS the promise! What could be better than that? Are you somehow claiming that there is something better than Jesus? As long as we focus on Christ and His kingdom and not on this earth we are fine. But as scripture shows this earth is passing away, where is our treasure? Is our treasure in heaven or on this rotten sinful earth?

How is any of that even relevant to the topic??? Did someone say there is a better promise than Christ??? No. We are discussing the promises God made to Israel and why they are not transferred to the Church.

[Guest shiloh357]

Well, you posted, and stated that the one who has proved his intellectual dishonesty by consistently ignoring the bulk of Biblical texts that disprove his pet theology, has proved his point, whereas the bulk of Biblical text disproving his pet theology have proved no point at all.

Now I dunno but I would say you gave yourself "a dog in this fight"

Actually...I don't have a dog in this fight because I still don't get what the big deal is on this topic that is virtually on the edge of exploding. My only point in posting was to say that as a bystander who was just reading through it was easier for me to see the point that one side was making. I'm sorry that I couldn't pick YOUR side of the debate...but I was honestly hoping that maybe my post would inspire you guys to explain yourselves better and explain why this is so important. Instead I was basically called a liar with selective memory...and then the race card was thrown down ...geesh....

You are such a drama queen. No one called you a liar with a selective memory. I simply corrrected your selective memory by showing you that we had pointed out how Horizon has taken verses out of context.

The race card was "thrown down" and was certainly not directed at you. But the 14-year-old girl in you has to make it appear that it was directed at you to keep the drama going.

I said that Replacement Theology made supporting Palestinians against Israel easier and that much of the support for the Palestinians against Israel was rooted in anti-Semitism. I made that remark in different post and was talking to someone else.

[lekh l'kha]

It certainly has.

All believers eagerly await the hope and promise of God of a New Heaven and new earth.

Jesus is the fulfillment of prophecy. God promised eternal life and an eternal Israel in Christ, we as gentiles should be extremely grateful to be grafted into this life and land.

But that land does not exist today, according to the scripture posted above and other scripture, the current earth will be destroyed.

All prophecy is fulfilled in Christ - but Christ hasn't come back yet, and not all prophecy has been fulfilled yet.

There are so many prophecies and scriptures which prove a literal millennial reign of Christ on the earth befoe the days of the new heavens and new earth that I don't even know where to start. But let's start by taking a look at the Bible as though it's one whole book instead of bits and pieces here and there that do not relate to one another, shall we?

In the Strong's Hebrew Dictionary, we discover that the Hebrew word shaba' is the root-word for the Hebrew words shabat (sabbath) and shib'ah (seven), and sh'biy'iy (seventh); and shaba' means to be complete.

The seventh day completes the cycle. What the Bible calls the

[Guest yod]

shalom ya'll