KINGDOM OF MESSIAH

[Guest yod]

you keep citing your opinions and cherry-picking single verses and misdirecting them out of context. That's so greek....

Can you provide proof for your baseless notion?

you provide ample proof with every post!?

[Smalcald]

It certainly has.

All believers eagerly await the hope and promise of God of a New Heaven and new earth.

Jesus is the fulfillment of prophecy. God promised eternal life and an eternal Israel in Christ, we as gentiles should be extremely grateful to be grafted into this life and land.

But that land does not exist today, according to the scripture posted above and other scripture, the current earth will be destroyed.

See, none of that diminishes God's promises to Israel. The current earth will be renovated (not destroyed) but God's promises will not suddenly disappear with the current age we live in. The New Heavens and New Earth do not nullify God's promises to Israel.

I realize you have taken great pains in your posts to make those promises appear as unimportant an meaningless as possible, but your endeavors are fruitless.

Why would you say that? I have not posted very much on this thread, mainly just some scripture.

Jesus IS the promise! What could be better than that? Are you somehow claiming that there is something better than Jesus? As long as we focus on Christ and His kingdom and not on this earth we are fine. But as scripture shows this earth is passing away, where is our treasure? Is our treasure in heaven or on this rotten sinful earth?

How is any of that even relevant to the topic??? Did someone say there is a better promise than Christ??? No. We are discussing the promises God made to Israel and why they are not transferred to the Church.

I find the whole topic stupid and trivial, generally a waste of time for believers. Transferred promises.., it sounds like we are arguing over who gets what from Christ? Who cares there is only one promise that matters and that is the promise of Christ to all believers, and indeed we are grafted on to this promise as it did indeed come through the Jew's I certainly do not deny that. What could the Church steal from Israel? There is one Body, One Spirit, One Baptism, what we do outside of THAT is not going to last anyway.

[lekh l'kha]

Sorry Shiloh but the kingdom was taken away from ALL unbelieving Jews by God. This included, but was not limited to, the Pharisees, Sadducees, chief priest, doctors of the law, merchants, goat-herders, bakers, butchers and candlestick-makers. It included ALL of the Jews save the remnant who accepted the Messiahship of the Lord, Jesus Christ. You need to look at the words of your own preferred scholar, AT Robertson. His words say it all

[lekh l'kha]

It certainly has.

All believers eagerly await the hope and promise of God of a New Heaven and new earth.

Jesus is the fulfillment of prophecy. God promised eternal life and an eternal Israel in Christ, we as gentiles should be extremely grateful to be grafted into this life and land.

But that land does not exist today, according to the scripture posted above and other scripture, the current earth will be destroyed.

See, none of that diminishes God's promises to Israel. The current earth will be renovated (not destroyed) but God's promises will not suddenly disappear with the current age we live in. The New Heavens and New Earth do not nullify God's promises to Israel.

I realize you have taken great pains in your posts to make those promises appear as unimportant an meaningless as possible, but your endeavors are fruitless.

Why would you say that? I have not posted very much on this thread, mainly just some scripture.

Jesus IS the promise! What could be better than that? Are you somehow claiming that there is something better than Jesus? As long as we focus on Christ and His kingdom and not on this earth we are fine. But as scripture shows this earth is passing away, where is our treasure? Is our treasure in heaven or on this rotten sinful earth?

How is any of that even relevant to the topic??? Did someone say there is a better promise than Christ??? No. We are discussing the promises God made to Israel and why they are not transferred to the Church.

I find the whole topic stupid and trivial, generally a waste of time for believers. Transferred promises.., it sounds like we are arguing over who gets what from Christ? Who cares there is only one promise that matters and that is the promise of Christ to all believers, and indeed we are grafted on to this promise as it did indeed come through the Jew's I certainly do not deny that. What could the Church steal from Israel? There is one Body, One Spirit, One Baptism, what we do outside of THAT is not going to last anyway.

Firstly, the theology that teaches that the church has replaced Israel brings the Holy Word of God which came to Abraham into question, and God calls this teaching a profanation of His Holy name in Ezekiel 36: 20.

Secondly, those who have persecuted and hated Jews and Israel have justified their hatred and persecution using this exact theology.

You may find the whole topic stupid and trivial, but the God Whom you serve does not.

[lekh l'kha]

I find the whole topic stupid and trivial, generally a waste of time for believers. Transferred promises.., it sounds like we are arguing over who gets what from Christ? Who cares there is only one promise that matters and that is the promise of Christ to all believers, and indeed we are grafted on to this promise as it did indeed come through the Jew's I certainly do not deny that. What could the Church steal from Israel? There is one Body, One Spirit, One Baptism, what we do outside of THAT is not going to last anyway.

QUOTE (Smalcald @ Nov 20 2009, 10:49 PM)

This was written in 1523, I think it relates and shows how long this discussion has been going on.

"Our fools, the popes, bishops, sophists, and monks-crude asses' heads-have hitherto so treated the Jews that anyone who wished to be a good Christian would almost have to become a Jew. If I had been a Jew and had seen such dolts and blockheads govern and teach the Christian faith, I would have sooner become a hog than a Christian.

They have dealt with the Jews as if they were dogs rather than human beings; they have done little else than deride them and seize their property. When they baptize them they show them nothing of Christian doctrine or life, but only subject them to popishness and monkery. When the Jews t hen see that Judaism has such strong support in scripture, and that Christianity has become a mere babble without reliance on scripture, how can the possibly compose themselves and become right good Christians? I have myself heard from pious baptized Jews that if they had not in our day heard the Gospel they would have remained Jews under the cloak of Christianity for the rest of their days. For they acknowledge that they have never yet heard anything about Christ from those who baptized and taught them.

I hope that if one deals in a kindly way with the Jews and instructs them carefully from Holy Scripture, many of them will become genuine Christians and turn again to the faith of their fathers, the prophets and patriarchs. They will only be frightened further away from it if their Judaism is so utterly rejected that nothing is allowed to remain and they are treated only with arrogance and scorn. If the apostles who were also Jews had dealt with us gentiles as we gentiles deal with the Jews, there would never have been a Christian among the gentiles. Since they dealt with us gentiles in such a brotherly fashion, we in our turn out to treat Jews in a brotherly manner in order that we might convert some of them. For even we ourselves are not yet all very far along, not to speak of having arrived."

What theology made them think they had the right to treat the Jews in this way, smalcald? And what theology makes Christians churches think they have the right to get together to sign a document condemning the state of Israel and to support the Palestinian casue?

I find it absolutely shocking that you can show what has been done to the Jews in the name of this replacement theoology and still say that you find the whole topic stupid and trivial.

[Smalcald]

It certainly has.

All believers eagerly await the hope and promise of God of a New Heaven and new earth.

Jesus is the fulfillment of prophecy. God promised eternal life and an eternal Israel in Christ, we as gentiles should be extremely grateful to be grafted into this life and land.

But that land does not exist today, according to the scripture posted above and other scripture, the current earth will be destroyed.

See, none of that diminishes God's promises to Israel. The current earth will be renovated (not destroyed) but God's promises will not suddenly disappear with the current age we live in. The New Heavens and New Earth do not nullify God's promises to Israel.

I realize you have taken great pains in your posts to make those promises appear as unimportant an meaningless as possible, but your endeavors are fruitless.

Why would you say that? I have not posted very much on this thread, mainly just some scripture.

Jesus IS the promise! What could be better than that? Are you somehow claiming that there is something better than Jesus? As long as we focus on Christ and His kingdom and not on this earth we are fine. But as scripture shows this earth is passing away, where is our treasure? Is our treasure in heaven or on this rotten sinful earth?

How is any of that even relevant to the topic??? Did someone say there is a better promise than Christ??? No. We are discussing the promises God made to Israel and why they are not transferred to the Church.

I find the whole topic stupid and trivial, generally a waste of time for believers. Transferred promises.., it sounds like we are arguing over who gets what from Christ? Who cares there is only one promise that matters and that is the promise of Christ to all believers, and indeed we are grafted on to this promise as it did indeed come through the Jew's I certainly do not deny that. What could the Church steal from Israel? There is one Body, One Spirit, One Baptism, what we do outside of THAT is not going to last anyway.

Firstly, the theology that teaches that the church has replaced Israel brings the Holy Word of God which came to Abraham into question, and God calls this teaching a profanation of His Holy name in Ezekiel 36: 20.

Secondly, those who have persecuted and hated Jews and Israel have justified their hatred and persecution using this exact theology.

You may find the whole topic stupid and trivial, but the God Whom you serve does not.

But don't you find the whole concept of who replaces who at its heart anti-Christian? It is like little kids arguing over who gets the biggest desert. There is only one Body of Christ nothing can be replaced one way or the other. But what promises are outside of Christ, what promises are there that Christ was not sufficient? Christ is the fulfillment of every promise, how could it be otherwise?

I would agree that hatred and persecution of Jews based on theology of any kind is of course not part of scripture and is an evil that has infected some Christians.

But at the same time the Holy Spirit has guided His Church for 2000 years spreading the Gospel to all nations and people I am not going to denigrate the work of Christ within His Church and among His saints, who have mainly been gentiles in number for the past 2000 years.

[lekh l'kha]

You rely on oudated commentaries by men who despite their excellence in other areas of Christian faith and practice, simply dropped the ball where Israel is concerned because many of them lived at a time when the notion of Israel having a prophetic future and being reestablished by God was an absurd concept. Many of the more modern scholars and preachers now understand that God has not rejected Israel, and still has a prophetic future for the nation of Israel despite those cling to the dying, rotting corpse of Replacement Theology.

You are such a drama queen

[Smalcald]

Where is Jerusalem?

24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:

"Be glad, O barren woman,

who bears no children;

break forth and cry aloud,

you who have no labor pains;

because more are the children of the desolate woman

than of her who has a husband."

28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[c] 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

18You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned."[c] 21The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."[d]

22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."[e] 27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken

[lekh l'kha]

you keep citing your opinions and cherry-picking single verses and misdirecting them out of context. That's so greek....

Can you provide proof for your baseless notion?

you provide ample proof with every post!?

[lekh l'kha]

What theology made them think they had the right to treat the Jews in this way...And what theology makes Christians churches think they have the right to get together to sign a document condemning the state of Israel and to support the Palestinian casue?

The racist errors propagated by the Roman Catholic Church and her sister churches over the past 1500 years does not change the truth that Jesus, the Lion of the tribe of Judah clearly told His brothers of the flesh