Freewill

[Fez]

We are predestined not to have free will

[Joshua-777]

please provide scripture that the demons are currently obedient to Christ.

I really have to show you the scripture where JESUS states all authority in Heaven and on Earth is given to HIM? Or the scriptures where even the demons are subject to HIS authority? Do you think that was only true while HE was on earth and now HE has no authority over them?

The very nature of an all powerful, ever present, all knowing GOD declares that this is so. (unless you do not believe JESUS is GOD, which is another conversation alltogether)

Let me ask you two questions.

Why did GOD create the Earth and man as HE did

How do you think GOD will keep the next Earth from ending up like this one if this was not HIS intention?

God created the earth and man perfect, God is good and has no part in evil. Through sin, we separated ourselves from God, which was not Gods plan, but God allowed it to happen. The way I see it, if God is good, than evil is the absence of God. Just as Darkness is the absence of light. The more this world separates us from God, the more wicked this world becomes. God will use this for the better. Romans 8:28 For I know that all things work for the good of those who love God and those who are called according to his purpose.

"Why did GOD create the Earth and man as HE did?"

God created the earth and man perfect, He did not create us flawed. Through temptation we fell, witch temptation is not of God,

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

How do you think GOD will keep the next Earth from ending up like this one if this was not HIS intention?

Why do you put limits on God? God will remove sin, there will be no separation and we will be created perfect as God has intended from the beginning.

Now the ultimate question, why?

I believe he gave us free will to sin, and the free will to separate us from him to reveal his love for us. It was not his intention that we would and he did not create us to fall away and sin. I believe We knew what we would do before he created us, but God loved us even before he created us. Instead of just destroying us as the wicked, he gives us a chance. We failed, and we sinned. Us sinning is not Gods will, but God can use it for the greater good. God is good, He has no accord with evil.

2 Corinthians 6:14-20 (New King James Version)

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[a] are the temple of the living God

God has authority over all creation, but he never wills to do evil, and his perfect will has no accord with evil.

Romans 12:2 (New King James Version)

2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

This verse clearly shows that the evil that goes on is not a part of Gods will, he allows it to happen but doesn't will for it to happen. Why would it say that we may prove what is good and acceptable and perfect will of God. This shows that we as believers must follow him to follow his perfect will. Do not attribute wickedness to God.

No-one has attributed wickedness to GOD. Wickedness is all us humans are capable of, "The heart is decietfully wiccked..."

The only good that we do, is what GOD does through us.

If GOD doesn't stop wickedness, that doesn't mean HE is guilty of wickedness.

But it does mean it serves a purpose in HIS plan. Otherwise it wouldn't exist.

In heven, there will be no wickedness. Why? Because GOD doesn't want it to be there. If HE didnt want it to be here, it wouldn't be here.

do you believe (as you've indicated earlier multiple times) that whatever God allows is actually His will that it occurs?

Yes. I believe it is within HIS absolute will. If it were not, HE would not allow it.

There is a difference between knowing whats going to happen and willing it to happen, By your posts earlier it appeared that you were saying God wills evil to happen, And that God created evil for his will. God's will is perfect.

The word "will" means desire, so by saying God willed for evil to happen, is really saying God desired evil to happen. I do believe God has a ultimate plan, and I believe he will use all things for the good, but I do not believed he desired for us to sin, and by saying God desires us to do evil is attributing evil to God. God wills for us to follow him and come to him.

God created us fully knowing that we would make the choice to sin, but because of his love for us he allowed us to have free will anyway, so that we might come to a true knowledge of who he is, and love him in return. Evil is a result of man and Satans own free will, not of Gods desire.

There is our free will, and there is Gods will, and the two are in opposition. God does not will us to do evil, but loves us in spite of it.

In the new heaven and the new earth we will not be tempted.

[kross]

please provide scripture that the demons are currently obedient to Christ.

I really have to show you the scripture where JESUS states all authority in Heaven and on Earth is given to HIM? Or the scriptures where even the demons are subject to HIS authority? Do you think that was only true while HE was on earth and now HE has no authority over them?

The very nature of an all powerful, ever present, all knowing GOD declares that this is so. (unless you do not believe JESUS is GOD, which is another conversation alltogether)

Let me ask you two questions.

Why did GOD create the Earth and man as HE did

How do you think GOD will keep the next Earth from ending up like this one if this was not HIS intention?

God created the earth and man perfect, God is good and has no part in evil. Through sin, we separated ourselves from God, which was not Gods plan, but God allowed it to happen. The way I see it, if God is good, than evil is the absence of God. Just as Darkness is the absence of light. The more this world separates us from God, the more wicked this world becomes. God will use this for the better. Romans 8:28 For I know that all things work for the good of those who love God and those who are called according to his purpose.

"Why did GOD create the Earth and man as HE did?"

God created the earth and man perfect, He did not create us flawed. Through temptation we fell, witch temptation is not of God,

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

How do you think GOD will keep the next Earth from ending up like this one if this was not HIS intention?

Why do you put limits on God? God will remove sin, there will be no separation and we will be created perfect as God has intended from the beginning.

Now the ultimate question, why?

I believe he gave us free will to sin, and the free will to separate us from him to reveal his love for us. It was not his intention that we would and he did not create us to fall away and sin. I believe We knew what we would do before he created us, but God loved us even before he created us. Instead of just destroying us as the wicked, he gives us a chance. We failed, and we sinned. Us sinning is not Gods will, but God can use it for the greater good. God is good, He has no accord with evil.

2 Corinthians 6:14-20 (New King James Version)

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[a] are the temple of the living God

God has authority over all creation, but he never wills to do evil, and his perfect will has no accord with evil.

Romans 12:2 (New King James Version)

2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

This verse clearly shows that the evil that goes on is not a part of Gods will, he allows it to happen but doesn't will for it to happen. Why would it say that we may prove what is good and acceptable and perfect will of God. This shows that we as believers must follow him to follow his perfect will. Do not attribute wickedness to God.

No-one has attributed wickedness to GOD. Wickedness is all us humans are capable of, "The heart is decietfully wiccked..."

The only good that we do, is what GOD does through us.

If GOD doesn't stop wickedness, that doesn't mean HE is guilty of wickedness.

But it does mean it serves a purpose in HIS plan. Otherwise it wouldn't exist.

In heven, there will be no wickedness. Why? Because GOD doesn't want it to be there. If HE didnt want it to be here, it wouldn't be here.

do you believe (as you've indicated earlier multiple times) that whatever God allows is actually His will that it occurs?

Yes. I believe it is within HIS absolute will. If it were not, HE would not allow it.

There is a difference between knowing whats going to happen and willing it to happen, By your posts earlier it appeared that you were saying God wills evil to happen, And that God created evil for his will. God's will is perfect.

The word "will" means desire, so by saying God willed for evil to happen, is really saying God desired evil to happen. I do believe God has a ultimate plan, and I believe he will use all things for the good, but I do not believed he desired for us to sin, and by saying God desires us to do evil is attributing evil to God. God wills for us to follow him and come to him.

God created us fully knowing that we would make the choice to sin, but because of his love for us he allowed us to have free will anyway, so that we might come to a true knowledge of who he is, and love him in return. Evil is a result of man and Satans own free will, not of Gods desire.

There is our free will, and there is Gods will, and the two are in opposition. God does not will us to do evil, but loves us in spite of it.

In the new heaven and the new earth we will not be tempted.

You miss the simple point that GOD doesn't allow what HE doesn't want to happen. Which means what HE allows, HE wants to happen.

I made this simple point, "In heven, there will be no wickedness. Why? Because GOD doesn't want it to be there. If HE didnt want it to be here, it wouldn't be here."

If you disagree with that, Than we will just continue to disagree.

[kross]

kross, i think i'll let this post be the end of my discussion with you. you believe that it is God's will for evil acts to be perpetrated against individuals. therefore, pertaining to THIS particular issue, you do not have a clear understanding of the nature of our heavenly Father. there may be other topics of biblical import that you are very knowledgeable about, and may have a far clearer understanding than i have. but to believe that God desires for evil to happen is very, very incorrect. now if you want to take offense to that, fine. i was not being condescending to you, but apparently your pride has gotten in the way of your ability to learn from others in this thread. so the best i can do is intercede for you and pray that the Holy Spirit do whatever it takes to help you to understand that God never, ever wishes for evil to occur.

I am sorry to say, there is no biblical foundation for,

" God intervenes in human affairs as a direct result of intercessory prayer. period." The idea that GOD will not do what is best for HIS children, whether they ask or not, is just foriegn to me. Even when I do not know what to ask for, what is good for me, HE prays to HIMSELF on my behalf.

oh, yes there is. it is entirely biblical. what is tripping you up is this assumption that i ever said whether an individual asks for His intervention on their behalf. if i had said that, then you would be right, there is no biblical foundation for that. but it is NOT what i said. perhaps you don't understand the meaning of intercessory prayer. it's when OTHERS pray, interceding for someone else. i do hope you will study this subject more deeply. and if you need help, i hope others will provide direction as to where to look. i apologize that at this late hour i have neither the alertness nor the desire to look up the scriptures for you to study. i know that doesn't bode well on my part through your eyes, and it is something i might regret. but i also know that you're a smart person and can, if you choose to (of your own free will) find the scriptures pertaining to this.

you're not alone in believing this theory though. the theory (i don't know what else to call it, because i refuse to believe that it is actually a doctrine that is taught) is exactly what prevents SOOO many unbelievers from reaching out to God.... the theory that God desires evil to befall people. that it is God's will that this person gets raped, or that person gets murdered, or the little toddler down the street was molested. heck, if that was the nature of our God, we'd all be stupid for dedicating our lives to Him. i'd turn my back on Him this very minute if that was who He was. i praise His Holy name that it is not His nature.

now, it's late, i'm tired, and i'm getting short tempered. you may be very mature spiritually, but like each of us, you have room to grow. so do i. there are biblical issues which i don't understand. there are some that you don't understand. the same can be said for every person on this forum. but it seems to me that this defensiveness you are displaying, this accusation that i'm somehow projecting myself as superior to you (that's the word you used previously), sounds quite as if you are saying the opposite... that i'm inferior to you. so since the two of us are unable to effectively communicate with each other, i'm done.

may God richly bless you.

I think ending this conversation is probably a good idea. I shall leave yu with your own words,

To use your exact words,

"as you grow in spiritual maturity, you will come to understand the nature of our heavenly Father more and more. right now your view of God is childlike... and that's not necessarily a bad thing, because God wants us to have faith as a child. but He also wants us to grow and mature and be able to understand more and more of Him. we'll never be "all grown up", but we are all on the same journey "

HIS peace

[EricH]

there were three threads going simultaneously on freewill in this forum. I closed one and left the other 22 open.

[kross]

How do you know your will is "free".

Just because you make a choice, does that mean it wasn't influenced by an outside source? Do you think GOD can influence you to make a choice without you even knowing it? I do. Infact, I am 100% certain that GOD does that a trillion times a day.

Just because a drug addict states he could have made a differnt choice, does that mean he could have? Since the choice was made, it was the only choice that could have been made with the genetics, social, ecconomic, and spiritual influences at work at that time.

If the spiritual influences were different, then the decission would be different.

GOD doesn't have to direct evil towards someone (although Job shows us HE does) But GOD does have to direct evil away from someone. GOD does have to reign Satan in rather than allow HIM to be all he can be.

Man's will, his deisres, are based in his heart condition. GOD softens the heart or allows the heart to harden (and sometimes hardens heart as in Rom 9) Without GOD exerting more influence than Satan and the flesh, no man would ever be saved. No man would ever do good.

SO, in truth, the will of man is never free. We are the sum total of the spiritual influences in our life. And it is GOD who determines what those influences will be, either by direct intervention or not intervening.

[kross]

And yes, despite the fact that we see individual acts as horrible, we do not see the number of people who will be lead to the LORD as a result of each one of them. We do not see the way each one of them impacts eternity and the overall intention of GOD. We seldom consider that evil glorifies the good, and darkness glorifies the light.

In the end, this creation is here to glorify the creator. The creator will be ultmately glorified when each individual sinner who is unsaved is judged in the perfect holiness and righteousness of GOD. The creator will be glorified in the complete salvation of each of HIS children whom HE saved as a result of HIS perfect grace and mercy and sacrifice.

Each one treated as an individual here and at the judgement seat. Each one created to perfection for the task GOD has for ecause GOD leaves nothing to chance.

[Guest LadyC]

our choices and actions are always influenced. by God (the Holy Spirit), by satan, by selfish desires, and by other people. that does not make us puppets that do what God wants us to do, good or bad.

[JCISGD]

our choices and actions are always influenced. by God (the Holy Spirit), by satan, by selfish desires, and by other people. that does not make us puppets that do what God wants us to do, good or bad.

Amen.

[kross]

our choices and actions are always influenced. by God (the Holy Spirit), by satan, by selfish desires, and by other people. that does not make us puppets that do what God wants us to do, good or bad.

Since I like nothing better than to be GOD's puppet, since I pray (as JESUS did) "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven and believe GOD answers that prayer and always answerred all fo JESUS' prayer, I will stick to my belief in what I see in the Bible.

I gave JESUS my life and I believe it is no longer I who lives but CHRIST living in me.

Peace