Guest LadyC Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 i probably misworded my thoughts in my first post. God's perfect will can be thwarted. God's sovereign will can not. His overall plan is His sovereign will.... sorry for miscommunicating what i was trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted December 8, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 8, 2009 i probably misworded my thoughts in my first post. God's perfect will can be thwarted. God's sovereign will can not. His overall plan is His sovereign will.... sorry for miscommunicating what i was trying to say. i gotcha now. thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick-Parker Posted December 8, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 4,272 Content Per Day: 4.88 Reputation: 1,855 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1955 Share Posted December 8, 2009 A conversation was started in another thread that I cnnot find now. Thr basic statement was that we will have freewill in heaven. Which I agree with. Here is the question; Some folk blame all of the evil that is in creation as having been a result of freewill choices. Satan made a freewill choice adn GOD didn't intend Satan to be what he is. If Satan, one of the angels who was always in the presence of GOD, was able to choose to rebel against GOD without it being something GOD intended, then how will HE keep rebelion from happening in heaven again? Did GOD learn from HIS mistake and find a way to create without concern? Since I believe evil and the fall was part of the plan for the Earth, and that nothing happens outside of GOD's will, I have no problem with the idea that GOD can create heaven without sin or evil. I believe GOD could have created the earth without sin or evil, and kept evil out. It just wasn't HIS intention to do so. So, there is the question; If HE intended this earth to be perfect and without evil, and it went astray, what is to keep the new earth from going astray? God makes no mistakes. Frankly kross, I'm surprised that you would make such a statement. Are you not feeling well? Or is the real kross coming out? I have clearly stated that I believe GOD intended this world to be exactly what it is. The question is for those who believe that this creation is not what GOD intended it to be. And for those who believe GOD didnt create Satan to be what he is. I read very well, my friend (you really should note when you go back and change a posting). You need to be more clear if you don't mean what you say because you did say "Did GOD learn from HIS mistake and find a way to create without concern?" If it was a rhetorical/sarcastic question, you should say so or leave some type of clue. It's a non-issue, though, for me. I now know what you meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franky67 Posted December 8, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 187 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/12/1925 Share Posted December 8, 2009 So, there is the question; If HE intended this earth to be perfect and without evil, and it went astray, what is to keep the new earth from going astray? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted December 8, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 8, 2009 So, there is the question; If HE intended this earth to be perfect and without evil, and it went astray, what is to keep the new earth from going astray? Satan, the originator and cause of evil, will be in solitary for a thousand years, so we will have peace for that long with him out of the way. Then after the thousand years, satan will be cast into the lake of fire. Rev. chap 19,20 Not until after Satan regroups and draws nations against God. Same reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Since I believe evil and the fall was part of the plan for the Earth, and that nothing happens outside of GOD's will, I have no problem with the idea that GOD can create heaven without sin or evil. I believe GOD could have created the earth without sin or evil, and kept evil out. It just wasn't HIS intention to do so. Your position is based on the assumption that nothing happens unless God intends for it to happen. The problem is that you have to step outside Scripture to make that argument. The Bible does not say that, so your assumption is not based on biblical fact from the get-go. You are relying on your assumption and trying to interpret the Scripture to fit your assumption. You do not have a biblical grasp on God's sovereignty and you are relying on an unbiblical assumption. The Bible says that nothing happens outside God's knowledge and permission. It does not say that everything happens because God intends. The Bible does not even say that God intended man to fall. All we know from Scripture is that God permitted what He knew would happen and that He already had a plan in place to redeem man from the fall. You have NO biblical grounds for claiming that God intended the world to be in the condition it is in. while i agree with what you say Shiloh, would you supply scriptures for us for your last paragraph, esp the first sentance, thanks. just wanted to say thanks shiloh, that's exactly what i've been trying to say for two (three?) days now... you said it much better than i did, and i hope that kross's eyes will be opened because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted December 8, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted December 8, 2009 Since I believe evil and the fall was part of the plan for the Earth, and that nothing happens outside of GOD's will, I have no problem with the idea that GOD can create heaven without sin or evil. I believe GOD could have created the earth without sin or evil, and kept evil out. It just wasn't HIS intention to do so. Your position is based on the assumption that nothing happens unless God intends for it to happen. The problem is that you have to step outside Scripture to make that argument. The Bible does not say that, so your assumption is not based on biblical fact from the get-go. You are relying on your assumption and trying to interpret the Scripture to fit your assumption. You do not have a biblical grasp on God's sovereignty and you are relying on an unbiblical assumption. The Bible says that nothing happens outside God's knowledge and permission. It does not say that everything happens because God intends. The Bible does not even say that God intended man to fall. All we know from Scripture is that God permitted what He knew would happen and that He already had a plan in place to redeem man from the fall. You have NO biblical grounds for claiming that God intended the world to be in the condition it is in. The entire discussion is probably mute. We are attempting to evaluate the eternal purposes of God who exists outside of time in a linear fashion. We are thus limited in our ability to explain it. All of the discussions contain equivocations of all sorts. Were are using the term God's will in several senses in the same sentence. All of us are trying to fill in blanks scripture just does not fill in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick-Parker Posted December 8, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 4,272 Content Per Day: 4.88 Reputation: 1,855 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1955 Share Posted December 8, 2009 why am i even doing this? God doesn't make mistakes. about that, kross is right. but PEOPLE do make mistakes, and PEOPLE sin against God and grieve the Holy Spirit all the time. God knows full well that it is human nature to sin, and knows before hand exactly what we are going to do, even when we screw up. that does not mean it is God's WILL that we screw up. and yes, God's plan, (as in His perfect will) can be thwarted by human error. but that's ok because God knows beforehand that it will happen, and His ULTIMATE will will be done. ultimately, everything will be worked out according to His plan and purpose. that is the sovereignty of God. but the details along the way are often not the way God would have preferred it to happen. (edited by moderator - Lets not make this personal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkins Posted December 9, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted December 9, 2009 A conversation was started in another thread that I cnnot find now. Thr basic statement was that we will have freewill in heaven. Which I agree with. Here is the question; Some folk blame all of the evil that is in creation as having been a result of freewill choices. Satan made a freewill choice adn GOD didn't intend Satan to be what he is. If Satan, one of the angels who was always in the presence of GOD, was able to choose to rebel against GOD without it being something GOD intended, then how will HE keep rebelion from happening in heaven again? Did GOD learn from HIS mistake and find a way to create without concern? Since I believe evil and the fall was part of the plan for the Earth, and that nothing happens outside of GOD's will, I have no problem with the idea that GOD can create heaven without sin or evil. I believe GOD could have created the earth without sin or evil, and kept evil out. It just wasn't HIS intention to do so. So, there is the question; If HE intended this earth to be perfect and without evil, and it went astray, what is to keep the new earth from going astray? Earth is a place deeply influenced by Satan and his death force. If people can 'survive' this by faith and choose to be with God in this environment, they will no longer rebel when in heaven where Satan's force will be absent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted December 9, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 Some folk blame all of the evil that is in creation as having been a result of freewill choices. Satan made a freewill choice adn GOD didn't intend Satan to be what he is. If Satan, one of the angels who was always in the presence of GOD, was able to choose to rebel against GOD without it being something GOD intended, then how will HE keep rebelion from happening in heaven again? Did GOD learn from HIS mistake and find a way to create without concern? of coarse God expected a rebellion to occur before He created the angels. Yes, God knew that free-will will run its coarse. God's character would of destroyed all those rebelling angels but they were not destroyed. "Why not" is what you should be asking. It seems as though a price was already paid or "something" was holding Him back. I think the something holding HIM back is HIS plan and purpose for making them. His plan cannot hold something back. If that were true then His Godly attributes are flawed. The moment one goes against a single word of God then a price has to be paid. His attributes would demand judgement. A plan cannot pass off as righteousness. If that were true then Christ should of not died and accepting a "plan" would of been suffice. Except we know that the plan was for CHRIST to die. The LAMB slain from the foundations of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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