Christianity and psychedelics

[EricH]

Moved from Worthy Welcome to General Discussion

[JCISGD]

But in many ways I feel more "sober" on cannabis...

Then I might suggest to you that this is evidence of something more physiological than spiritual. Have you ever been checked for chemical imbalance?

No I don't have the habit of going in to get my brain state checked

You misunderstand me. What I mean is that it gives me a clear headedness and insight into things that aren't achievable in a normal state of mind.

I'm not trying to say I KNOW I'm right here, I really don't, which is why I'm wondering what others' opinions are.

For me it's kinda like the same thing as masturbation (terrible comparison I know!) which is never condemned in the bible, yet is often paired with lust (but doesn't HAVE to be)

BTW: while I'm at it, what is the difference between pure sexual desire and lust? Is there a difference?

Sorry to go off on a tangent but don't feel like creating another whole thread.

Hi Nox, I want to reply to your questions and will openly state why and how these things are wrong, but i hope you do not think i have any ill feeling towards you. Quite the opposite actually as i recognise myself in you as i was a liberal humanist before i met Christ in 1990 and the Lord has gradually changed my understanding on many things.

Firstly i will say i see alot of your veiws seem based on how these things make us feel, but i want you to see that feelings are good but not for a guideline of right or wrong. God deals with us as thinking beings and being capable of reasoning with, therefore He says "come let us reason together" and often asks to look into our heart to see that it is not right.

I was a heavy drinker and smoked dope with friends who preferred this or both. The short term effects of both of these was a sense of freedom and fun filled days, but a man reaps what he sows and plants take time to grow up into fullness. I watched my best friend go from an astute life filled guy to eventual deluded and paranoid unmotivated person. He was still capable of acheivement but was not based in sound reality. I also saw many other young lives robbed of potential and eventual death or delusionment.

Nox there is a spiritual world we cannot see and we have a spiritual enemy Satan who wants to rob, cheat and destroy humans because he knows this hurts God so much. He cannot touch God so he goes after those God loves. The rules are set based on this, and because we cant see the spiritual we need to be guided by Gods word the bible and not our feelings. Its like being blindfolded and being led by another, if we trust them and follow their instructions we are ok.

All drugs alter our chemistry and spiritual entities known as demons look for opportunities to enter our being while our defenses are weak or down. Those drugs used for recreational purposes do not create but destroy by making us dependant on them to get the experience we are seeking. Life with God is designed to bring great joy and meet all our needs, but we prefer to live lowly in mundane or fruitless comfortability of the things we know and grew up with.

Masterbation is prohibited under the 7th commandment (which covers all sexual sins including lust), because it causes a selfish seeking of gratification and takes away from life rather than giving life. It is also known as Onasim after Onan in Gen 38:4-9 who the Lord struck dead for spilling his seed on the ground instead of procreating life.

I dont think we can honestly seperate lust (strong sexual desire) from masterbastion, if there was no lust no one would do it. Lust (sexual desire) is not wrong between a husband and wife and God designed it so we would "go forth and fill the earth with godly offspring, but Satan has perverted it to rob, cheat and destroy.

Pure sexual desire then is any desire that can be fulfilled in marriage. Its not wrong to have desires but some must be denied so they die off and others are to be fulfilled when certain conditions are met, and in the case of sexual desire this is in within the confines of love in marriage.

I hope this is of help to you in your understanding of why some experiences that seem to be harmless or even enlightening are in the long run harmful. Feel free to send me a PM if you want.

God bless,

Arthur

[2Joyful]

What I mean is that it gives me a clear headedness and insight into things that aren't achievable in a normal state of mind.

I'm not trying to say I KNOW I'm right here, I really don't, which is why I'm wondering what others' opinions are.

For me it's kinda like the same thing as masturbation (terrible comparison I know!) which is never condemned in the bible, yet is often paired with lust (but doesn't HAVE to be)

BTW: while I'm at it, what is the difference between pure sexual desire and lust? Is there a difference?

Sorry to go off on a tangent but don't feel like creating another whole thread.

Psychedelics and masturbation.......

No you wouldn't want to start a new thread, cause you have been exposed.

I believe you are just getting off trying to go as deep and dirty as you can.

Beware you are standing on Holy Ground, even if you are using a pc.

And God's not laughing.

If you really want to get insight of things that can't be achievable in a normal state of mind,

repent, study the Word, get in the face of God, then you will have a supernatural experience that will blow your

natural mind.

"Call unto Me, and I will answer thee and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not."

Jeremiah 33:3.

jotful

[Believer1997]

AMEN JOT!!!

[MorningGlory]

No you wouldn't want to start a new thread, cause you have been exposed.

I believe you are just getting off trying to go as deep and dirty as you can.

Beware you are standing on Holy Ground, even if you are using a pc.

And God's not laughing.

If you really want to get insight of things that can't be achievable in a normal state of mind,

repent, study the Word, get in the face of God, then you will have a supernatural experience that will blow your

natural mind.

"Call unto Me, and I will answer thee and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not."

Jeremiah 33:3.

jotful

Absolutely, Jot! May this poster take your words ,and the commands of the Lord, and get their life on track.

[Easter-ner]

Hi nox, just to let you know, marijuana is NOT safe ... don't believe the lie that it is harmless.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/newsletter/buckets/drugs.html

"Researchers in New Zealand found that those who used cannabis by the age of 15 were more than three times (300%) more likely to develop illnesses such as schizophrenia. Other research has backed this up, showing that cannabis use increases the risk of psychosis by up to 700 per cent for heavy users, and that the risk increases in proportion to the amount of cannabis used (smoked or consumed). "

[JCISGD]

Jot, Believer and MG it is not right to assign motives to Nox, you do not know his heart only God does. Scripturally we are to ask others what their motive is, preferring to be wronged rather take another to court.

[OneLight]

Jot, Believer and MG it is not right to assign motives to Nox, you do not know his heart only God does. Scripturally we are to ask others what their motive is, preferring to be wronged rather take another to court.

Arthur,

I do not see them condemning this person at all, or trying to see the heart of Nox. Can you give specifics?

What I do see is calling sin a sin and using scripture to do so. Are we not told ...

James 5:19-20 (New King James Version)

Bring Back the Erring One

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (New King James Version)

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Ever wonder about the name nox? Nox is slang for Nitrous Oxide, a gas that is used to get high.

[Believer1997]

Jot, Believer and MG it is not right to assign motives to Nox, you do not know his heart only God does. Scripturally we are to ask others what their motive is, preferring to be wronged rather take another to court.

I have no idea what you are referring to - no one has assigned motives to anyone - we've only responded to what Nox has stated. You seem to have this maligned sense of persecution of either yourself or others .... just a thought - perhaps you should examine your own motives.

[Smalcald]

Hey woulda put this in the appropriate area but apparently new members can only post here. Please move it!

Hey guys,

New here and I was hoping for some answers... I'm a little hesitant though because you never know where someone is coming from on the internet...

I'm a very "conservative" Christian in terms of theology... more or less straight up Calvinist (though I'm very aware that it's stupid to try to assume we can truly understand God), predestination and all that, but very much a left leaning libertarian when it comes to society in general, since I don't believe that we are mandated by God to judge others for sins like homosexuality when something as "simple" as gossiping at church is just as evil in his eyes. I also don't think there's anything Christlike about supporting big business and keeping out immigrants.

Not trying to start a political discussion though, just wanna give an idea of where I'm at.

Anyways, I live in Northern California (near San Francisco), I'm very into music and through the "scene" came into contact with a lot of people into psychedelics. I decided to try cannabis, just out of curiosity more than anything. I enjoyed it a lot and found most of the "anti marijuana" info out there to be straight up lies. It didn't affect my school work at all (3.6 GPA at a top private university) and at the time I was working a very high pressure sales job... if anything it allowed me to be more genuine to the potential customers I spoke with.

That's probably the biggest effect cannabis had on me... it made me more open and loving, and understanding (this effect lasted well after I had "smoked"... it genuinely altered my perception of reality in a very positive way). At the time I was dealing with severe anxiety and cannabis calmed me down a lot and made me feel like I'd finally found my "real personality". I'm still struggling with the anxiety, and I hope and pray that soon I will be free of it and not need anything at all (whether it be cannabis, or some sort of prescribed drug).

My friends and I would often spend hours after smoking discussing life and death, spiritual issues (most of them were what I would consider "seekers"), and just sharing the good times. I looked back at all the stuff I'm been fed in the DARE sessions in 5th grade and wanted to laugh. And the biggest question and I had was why alcohol was legal and this wasn't!

Anyways, a few months later, I got the opportunity to try 2c-e, another much lesser known legal psychedelic (technically cannabis IS a psychedelic, though it's much more easy going on most people), with properties similar to LSD. I've never had the slightest interest in cocaine, heroine or meth or any of the truly "evil" drugs that destroy lives... but psychedelics fascinated me. My friends told me about their incredible experiences of feeling at one with humanity and feeling incredible joy and awe at nature, and I just couldn't wait.

So I went into the woods and dosed and by myself one afternoon to see what it was all about. It started out with just feeling kinda slow but by the time it really kicked in I experienced an awe of God that I had never felt before. It was by far the most incredible experience of my life and I still feel grateful to have had it. In my opinion, what psychedelics do is they "pull back" the mental blocks that we have (the brain filters out most information so we don't overload) and so I was able to see the world more as it truly was. I spent the next 5 hours straight in the forest on my knees praising God for just being who he is. It was incredible.

And now, it kinda makes me wonder about all the negative attitudes the church has against psychedelics (again I stress here there is a MASSIVE difference between psychedelics and "hard drugs"), especially since virtually all of them are either plants or derived from plants (LSD is derived from ergot, a type of fungus), which God made. Now I know there's the argument that well, hemlock is a plant too that God made, but I think this is a little different. First off, although many studies in the 60s tried to prove their danger (especially the evil "Marijuana" which had a massive campaign launched against it), pretty much all recent medical studies have found them either relatively harmless or FAR below the danger incurred by regular use of alcohol or tobacco. One study I read stated that having a magic mushroom trip was about "twenty times safer than driving around the block". Google it if you don't believe me.

Most ironic of all was the Shafer commission which Nixon directed in an attempt to justify the "Drug War" he was soon to launch, which ended up recommending decriminalization (Nixon ended up ignoring this and covering it up):

[T]he criminal law is too harsh a tool to apply to personal possession even in the effort to discourage use. It implies an overwhelming indictment of the behavior which we believe is not appropriate. The actual and potential harm of use of the drug is not great enough to justify intrusion by the criminal law into private behavior, a step which our society takes only 'with the greatest reluctance.

The fact that fourteen out of 50 states already have medical marijuana programs is indicative to its benefits rather than its dangers.

I'm not trying to launch into a massive "pro psychedelics" speech here, just trying to get down to a simple question:

If Cannabis were to be legalized (which it looks soon to be in California which has it on the ballot) would it be against Christianity to use it? What about stronger psychedelics like shrooms? If you haven't ever used Cannabis please try to think before you speak too because it is nothing like alcohol intoxication. It does not make you "stupid", or violent, or reckless, it simply overwhelms you with deep thought. Thus I believe it does not fall under the Proverbs commandment to avoid drunkenness.

And to the argument that altering your mind with anything is against God then I ask what about music? Music, ESPECIALLY the repetitive drum based kind physiologically alters your actual brain chemistry and causes you to think differently (look it up, alpha waves). Is this wrong too?

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing against Christianity about tripping or using cannabis is the fact that it's illegal (mostly, a few are legal like the one I tried), and we're supposed to be obey the government no matter how oppressive unless it directly violates Christianity. Something that was conveniently ignored by the way when the States revolted against the British Empire .

Is it not possible that God put cannabis on this planet for us to enjoy much as we enjoy fruit, wine, the natural high from running long distance, etc.?

What do you all think?

Hi Nox.

Scripture says we are to be sober. It is pretty clear.

It also says that we are to not take part in drunkeness and revelries, (partying).

You simply can't lead that lifestyle and call yourself a believer in Christ. We are to be different from the hedonistic society that surrounds us. Now, I would agree with you that pot for example is probably not any more dangerous than any other substance that gets you drunk (drunk is the same as being high or anything that takes you away from sobriety).

But these other drugs you are speaking of from what I have read really can be very dangerous. I meet people in every day in my work who abused acid in their 20's and 30's who are now suffering mental illness due to drug psychosis.

In addition the drug business is by its very nature violent and sinful. Every time a person buys pot or buys any illegal drug they are partially responsible for murder and exploitation which are part of the multi billion dollar dope trade which is feeding our drug demand in the US. We as Christians cannot be part of that culture. Emotionalism is false, nothing we feel is permanent, what is forever is the Holy Spirit, we know we are saved NOT by how we feel but by what we do by producing the fruit of a good tree. If we feel that we are saved but intentionally sin day in and day out, we are not saved regardless of our feelings.

Getting stoned/drunk/high which are all the same, is sin and according to Paul those who practice these things will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

Anyway peace to you.