Restoration of the Church

[Rick-Parker]

No, this is an issue to you because I used the word "church." That's why you hijacked this thread.

[nebula]

No, this is an issue to you because I used the word "church." That's why you hijacked this thread.

I didn't start this debate.

[Guest yod]

You're missing the point of those verses. Paul explains why he is going to the gentiles in Romans 11

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

So, yes, God does want the nations to hear the good news but Paul says he did it to provoke his own people (jews) unto salvation. He also says that when they have been restored (the OP of this thread) that it will be the biggest revival of all time...life from the dead!

And the "error" I spoke of in the earlier post is accepting the errors of european theology caused by an intentional mistranslation of words into "church". The scriptures are 100% accurate...but ANY translation is going to have flaws in various places.

However, the particular flaw we're speaking about ("church") implied something the original languages didn't mention...and could not have intended either.

[Rick-Parker]

No, this is an issue to you because I used the word "church." That's why you hijacked this thread.

I didn't start this debate.

Read your post # 26 and subsequent posts. You acted like I didn't have a clue and that there was no scripture to back up what I said.

You're missing the point of those verses. Paul explains why he is going to the gentiles in Romans 11

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

So, yes, God does want the nations to hear the good news but Paul says he did it to provoke his own people (jews) unto salvation. He also says that when they have been restored (the OP of this thread) that it will be the biggest revival of all time...life from the dead!

And the "error" I spoke of in the earlier post is accepting the errors of european theology caused by an intentional mistranslation of words into "church". The scriptures are 100% accurate...but ANY translation is going to have flaws in various places.

However, the particular flaw we're speaking about ("church") implied something the original languages didn't mention...and could not have intended either.

I'm not missing the point of any of the verses. Paul's ministry was to complete the Mystery of God, which was the inclusion of the Gentiles under the Cross. This is just dumb arguing about whether the word "church" is an error or whether it's translation is meant to cause division within the Christian community.

Anyway, any further debate on my part is unnecessary, so have at it.

[nebula]

No, this is an issue to you because I used the word "church." That's why you hijacked this thread.

I didn't start this debate.

Read your post # 26 and subsequent posts. You acted like I didn't have a clue and that there was no scripture to back up what I said.

Parker, I was only following up the debate that had already began. It's fine if you want to be angry at me for adding to the debate, but please don't get mad at me for something I didn't do. OK?

[Rick-Parker]

I'm not angry. You are the one who screeched at me with "Parker!!!!!!" when you know very well the the NT is full of verses where Paul says his ministry was to the Gentiles, which is all that I had said. There are just some times that people need to think about how they come across, myself included. So I call a truce on my part.

[nebula]

All right - the "screech" was what I would have done in person, accompanied by playful "fish slapping" (playing like I was wacking your face like a fish-tail).

Truce it is.

[Guest yod]

This is just dumb arguing about whether the word "church" is an error or whether it's translation is meant to cause division within the Christian community.

Who's arguing?

I'm just stating something I've already said several times on these Boards before because that IS the answer to the OP

You questioned it, so I've answered your questions now. It is not possible that the hebrew/greek words translated as "church" could even vaguely be defined as "a specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel". I'm just giving you the truth, do with it as you wish.

An error of perception has occurred within the Body because of a liberty taken in the translation of these 3 different words.

God has never said anything about restoring "the church". Ever.

How could He? There is no such thing as "the church" (a specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel) on any page of the Bible!?! People think there is because of the way these words were translated.

There certainly is no argument that this error has divided gentile christians from Israel exactly as the translators (but not the Word) intended for it to do. If I were wrong about that, someone could prove it.

No argument whatsoever evidently.

[Rick-Parker]

You have not answered my question. Show me PROOF that what you claim is true. Show me in the original manuscripts that the translation to "church" is in error and is a deliberate attempt to mislead and separate. All I want is solid proof. If you can provide it, fine, if not ......

edit: you said "There certainly is no argument that this error has divided gentile christians from Israel exactly as the translators (but not the Word) intended for it to do. If I were wrong about that, someone could prove it." The onus of proof is upon you, as the word "Church" is used many times in scripture.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Parker1

[Guest yod]

nope...the word "church" is NOT in the scriptures...though its obviously in some english translations

there is a difference between the Word of God and translations of the Word of God

the hebrew scriptures use these words:

HEBREW.......................... GREEK.....................CORRECT ENGLISH TRANSLATION

Edah................................Sunagoge................. Gathering or gathering place

Kahal ...............................Ekklesia....................Community, Assembly, or association of communities

None of those words have a religious connotation at all. By using the word "church" a religious connotation is inserted where God intended none. And again...the word "church" is a post-biblical german/english word defined as "a specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel"

Using simple common sense, do you honestly believe that Paul was advocating something like that?

If you think using that word isn't such a big deal, try using the word "mosque" in every place you see the word "church" and see if it changes the meaning.

This error of translation has done immeasurable damage to the Body of Messiah throughout history. It's not a small thing as many might think at first glance...