Trinity

[Botz]

QUOTE (lekh l'kha @ Dec 27 2009, 09:00 AM)

"Baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

Isn't HIS name YHWH? Why aren't we baptised in HIS name? Why are we baptised in the name of three titles or descriptions of God, instead of in HIS name? Just asking. Because I've often wondered why we are not baptised in the name of God.

No one knows the correct pronunciation of YHVH. The Jewish people do not pronounce His Name out of reverence to God.

If anyone thinks the "three persons" teaching is a stumbling block to Jews, just go around trying to pronounce the ineffable Name of God and see how much more you will end up driving the Jewish people away from the Messiah.

But don

[Smalcald]

Yes we should not let semantics hinder the Word of God.

As long as we stick with the Word of God as revealed to us in scripture, (which of course proclaims the absolute divinity of Christ), then we are being faithful to the Word in my opinion.

The Word Trinity does not have to be used if it causes confusion.

[AnotherTraveler]

Do believe that the Divinity of Christ is man's doctrine?

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:3-8 (KJV)

I believe the scriptures.

For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Acts 18:28 (KJV)

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Tim 3:14-17 (KJV)

Notice that it says that all scripture ....is profitable for doctrine, and NOT that doctrine is profitable for scripture, and the direction of this flow is important. God chose by the scriptures to establish doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction, and the verses here DON'T say partly furnished, but throughly furnished.

And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Matt 7:28-29 (KJV)

Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matt 16:12 (KJV)

And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Matt 22:33 (KJV)

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 7:16-17 (KJV)

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Eph 4:9-16 (KJV)

As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

1 Tim 1:3-4 (KJV)

Now, in that we can establish the timeline of the formation of the Trinity doctrine, and it was not taught in the early church, would it not fall under the "teach no other doctrine" charge that is found in 1st Tim?

[Guest shiloh357]

If anyone thinks the "three persons" teaching is a stumbling block to Jews, just go around trying to pronounce the ineffable Name of God and see how much more you will end up driving the Jewish people away from the Messiah.

There are a number of stumbling blocks we can place before Jewish people, not least the two you mention...and Christian history, ancient and modern has not helped one bit either. I believe if Paul was alive now, he would have encouraged Gentiles to seek whatever means they could to present Messiah to the Jews, above all realizing the debt we owe, the shameful events of the past, and the obligation we have to be totally upfront about Yeshua their Messiah....they too need to fulfill the Law through faith in Yeshua.

I don't think anyone is saying that we need to make the Trinity issue part of how we share our faith or present the gospel. However, because it is a sticking point with Jewish people, they will (and do) bring it up. They do not hesitate to make an issue of it without any help from us. So it is something we will have to deal with at some point. I don't think there is a way to forestall that discussion with them for very long.

[Guest shiloh357]

So, the introduction to explaining the doctrine "central to our faith" states that it is beyond human understanding. So preceding the explanation is the declaration that no human can understand this, how is it that we don't have a problem with this? I submit it is a case of intellectual dishonesty, ignoring of the facts so that the story can be told, believed, and become required for all, though it is not able to be comprehended by any human.

The same can be said for God's eternal existence. It is beyond human comprehension how God can have no beginning and no end, yet that is exactly what we are expected to believe.

Belief and understanding are two completely different things. Belief does not necessarily depend on understanding. Much of what God does is beyond our understanding, but we are still accountable for believing it. So it should not seem so strange that any aspect of God's nature transcends human understanding. That does not make it unbelievable, though.

Consider this: In Ephesians 3:19, Paul's prayer for the saints is that we know the love of Christ that surpassess knowledge. It is the same kind of paradox. To know what is unknowable. The verb in that verse means to acknowledge. We can acknowledge that which is beyond our comprehension. It is the same with other aspects of God's nature that defy the limits of human comprehension. The concept is there, we can see it, but we don't understand it.

The Mormon's "baptism for the dead" is at least taking a single verse of scripture and twisting the meaning, but trinity the word, or trinity the explanation, or trinity the explanation of the summary of the explanation is not found in the scriptures.

Again, neither are the words, grandfather or legalism, but those concepts are in the Bible, nonetheless.

Try to find coequal, I can show you where Jesus said the Father is greater than I (John 14:28).

Yes, but keep in mind that Jesus was speaking terms of His ministry on earth, not His divine nature. Jesus, in terms of being God was equal with the Father, but in terms of His humanity and ministry on earth was voluntarily submissive to His Father's will.

While we are certainly to have faith in the BIBLE, hence applying our believing to God's WORD, applying our believing to MAN'S DOCTRINE in the same manner is completely foolish and unscriptural.

So far, no one has proven that the teaching of the Trinity is "man's doctrine." The concept of Trinity IS in the the Bible, precluding man from being its source.

Now, in that we can establish the timeline of the formation of the Trinity doctrine, and it was not taught in the early church, would it not fall under the "teach no other doctrine" charge that is found in 1st Tim?

No, not really, because the Trinity is revealed in Scripture despite it not being referred to by that name. We see it in operation througout the NT and that trumps the argument about when "the Trinity" was actually formulated. It is formulated out of the Divine revelvation of Scripture and not from human opinion or contrivance.

[Guest shiloh357]

Do believe that the Divinity of Christ is man's doctrine?

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:3-8 (KJV)

I believe the scriptures.

For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Acts 18:28 (KJV)

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Tim 3:14-17 (KJV)

Notice that it says that all scripture ....is profitable for doctrine, and NOT that doctrine is profitable for scripture, and the direction of this flow is important. God chose by the scriptures to establish doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction, and the verses here DON'T say partly furnished, but throughly furnished.

And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Matt 7:28-29 (KJV)

Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matt 16:12 (KJV)

And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Matt 22:33 (KJV)

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 7:16-17 (KJV)

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Eph 4:9-16 (KJV)

As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

1 Tim 1:3-4 (KJV)

Now, in that we can establish the timeline of the formation of the Trinity doctrine, and it was not taught in the early church, would it not fall under the "teach no other doctrine" charge that is found in 1st Tim?

You didn't really answer Smalcald's question. Do you believe in the divinity of Jesus? Do you believe that Jesus is God?

[Smalcald]

Yeah my point on the Trinity is totally focused on the Divinity of Christ as God, to me this is the key point of the entire biblical doctrine. Shiloh has done an excellent job showing and explaining this biblical teaching.

We pray to Christ yet we are mono-theists we believe in only ONE God we are not polytheistic we are not pagan believers in multiple Gods. This leaves us with only one choice, Jesus IS God ( you cannot worship a being who is NOT fully God, that would indeed be blaspheme; do we worship Jesus, do we bow to Him? Yet if we do bow to Him and He is not full God, well we are breaking the first commandment. Yet scripture shows that Jesus had a human nature on earth in obedience and love to His Father as this is the only way our sins can and were forgiven in the divine providence of God.

I love the biblical doctrine called the Trinity; I find it a glorious and beatiful scriptural teaching that God was on earth with a human nature loving His father, yet is totally One with that Father as God in eternity right now and in all eternity.

[Guest yod]

So far, no one has proven that the teaching of the Trinity is "man's doctrine." The concept of Trinity IS in the the Bible, precluding man from being its source.

Oh c'mon Shiloh, you know what is meant by that. There absolutely was a "doctrine" formulated by the church that wasn't written in the scriptures, even if it was based on what is in the scriptures.

for example (not looking at that list) they argued about the "substance" of the Holy Spirit because the word "anointed" comes from a greek word meaning "a substance rubbed in" because they had no greek word equivalent to Ruach HaKodesh.

Do you think the Holy Spirit is made of a substance?

Is that not implying something the scriptures don't actually say?

I agree that the triune nature of God is in the Word...but the "doctrine" of the Trinity is confusing and unnecessarily cumbersome to explain for most of us (excepting theologians like yourself)

[AnotherTraveler]

Do believe that the Divinity of Christ is man's doctrine?

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:3-8 (KJV)

I believe the scriptures.

For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Acts 18:28 (KJV)

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Tim 3:14-17 (KJV)

Notice that it says that all scripture ....is profitable for doctrine, and NOT that doctrine is profitable for scripture, and the direction of this flow is important. God chose by the scriptures to establish doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction, and the verses here DON'T say partly furnished, but throughly furnished.

And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Matt 7:28-29 (KJV)

Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matt 16:12 (KJV)

And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Matt 22:33 (KJV)

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 7:16-17 (KJV)

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Eph 4:9-16 (KJV)

As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

1 Tim 1:3-4 (KJV)

Now, in that we can establish the timeline of the formation of the Trinity doctrine, and it was not taught in the early church, would it not fall under the "teach no other doctrine" charge that is found in 1st Tim?

You didn't really answer Smalcald's question. Do you believe in the divinity of Jesus? Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Do you read? Rev 1:3-8 is talking about Jesus Christ, the ALMIGHTY, of course Jesus is God, He is God manifest in the flesh, according to the scriptures. Why is it so hard for you to take the scriptures as they are, and not try to find trick questions and blurbs to denounce someone that is declaring that we must all believe as the scriptures have said? Instead of reading all the verses I took the time and energy to list, lets instead require, no demand! answers to stupid questions! Why oh why can't we be the people that search the scriptures, as Jesus commanded?

[Botz]

I don't think anyone is saying that we need to make the Trinity issue part of how we share our faith or present the gospel.

I thought that was indirectly hinted at throughout this discission by some people, as it was a pivotal doctrine...my point all through was challenging the elevation of this doctrine on the person and nature of G-d to where 'Trinity' becomes established as an extra-biblcal name of G-d.

However, because it is a sticking point with Jewish people, they will (and do) bring it up. They do not hesitate to make an issue of it without any help from us. So it is something we will have to deal with at some point. I don't think there is a way to forestall that discussion with them for very long.

There are two things to make clear here.

1. IMO to focus on the Trinity with Jewish people is unhelpful, and immediately gets into strong argument, particularly with some of the more enthusiastic Haredim.

2. When the conversation does touch the Trinity (and invariably it does), I personally do not regurgitate Trinitarian doctrine, but endeavour to find out why they think it indicates three G-ds, and take it from there...most often I have found they have been taught wrongly...presumably on purpose, because their Rabbis aren't dimwits but follow through in their teaching with an anti-Christian/missionary bias, that stems from centuries of pain.

This may seem over-simplistic, and there are many different approaches, but this has been my experience....

I was up in Tiberias not too long ago, and picked up four young Haredim to take over to Tzemech, and as usual as soon as we got going they fired all sorts of questions at me about Christians...no prompting from me, just the way G-ds Spirit moves at times, they were very very ignorant, not only of Christians, but seemingly of their Tenach...sometimes I wonder if they don't spend more time studying the Talmud and extra-Tenach writings, than they do the actual Scriptures...and all their intellectual zealousness is no substitute for the inspiration and direction of the Holy Spirit.