Trinity

[Botz]

I understand your point but this

[Guest shiloh357]

Do believe that the Divinity of Christ is man's doctrine?

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:3-8 (KJV)

I believe the scriptures.

For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Acts 18:28 (KJV)

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Tim 3:14-17 (KJV)

Notice that it says that all scripture ....is profitable for doctrine, and NOT that doctrine is profitable for scripture, and the direction of this flow is important. God chose by the scriptures to establish doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction, and the verses here DON'T say partly furnished, but throughly furnished.

And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Matt 7:28-29 (KJV)

Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matt 16:12 (KJV)

And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Matt 22:33 (KJV)

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 7:16-17 (KJV)

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Eph 4:9-16 (KJV)

As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

1 Tim 1:3-4 (KJV)

Now, in that we can establish the timeline of the formation of the Trinity doctrine, and it was not taught in the early church, would it not fall under the "teach no other doctrine" charge that is found in 1st Tim?

You didn't really answer Smalcald's question. Do you believe in the divinity of Jesus? Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Do you read? Rev 1:3-8 is talking about Jesus Christ, the ALMIGHTY, of course Jesus is God, He is God manifest in the flesh, according to the scriptures. Why is it so hard for you to take the scriptures as they are, and not try to find trick questions and blurbs to denounce someone that is declaring that we must all believe as the scriptures have said? Instead of reading all the verses I took the time and energy to list, lets instead require, no demand! answers to stupid questions! Why oh why can't we be the people that search the scriptures, as Jesus commanded?

A straight question deserves a straight answer. Simply peppering people with Scripture and expecting them to decipher what you mean doesn't really answer the question. I am not engaging in trick questions. I just asked for a straight answer which you have now provided. I doubt it is as painful as you are pretending.

[Guest shiloh357]

Oh c'mon Shiloh, you know what is meant by that. There absolutely was a "doctrine" formulated by the church that wasn't written in the scriptures, even if it was based on what is in the scriptures.

The concept was already in the Bible though. For it to be a doctrine of men, it would have to have its point of origin in human intellect.

for example (not looking at that list) they argued about the "substance" of the Holy Spirit because the word "anointed" comes from a greek word meaning "a substance rubbed in" because they had no greek word equivalent to Ruach HaKodesh.

Do you think the Holy Spirit is made of a substance?

Is that not implying something the scriptures don't actually say?

First of all, who is "they?" Secondly, what was the final decision "they" arrived at???

Of course the Holy Spirit is not a physical substance. I think it would be obvious to anyone that the use of "anointing" would be metaphorical. The word "anoint" means to "to rub" and since the Holy Spirit is not a physical substance rubbed into us, the use of the term anointing has a more spiritual/metphorical usage.

Additionally, "substance" is also used to refer to other things other than physical substances. In Colossians, Paul states that the Festivals, Sabbaths and New Moons are shadows of things to come but the "substance" is of Christ. In that place, the word "substance" refers to the focus, or the main idea. In the same way, the "substance of the Holy Spirit" can refer to the reality of the Holy Spirit.

I agree that the triune nature of God is in the Word...but the "doctrine" of the Trinity is confusing and unnecessarily cumbersome to explain for most of us (excepting theologians like yourself)

If by "the doctrine of the Trinity" you are referring to what is contained in the Anathasian Creed, you are mistaken. The teaching of the Trinity can be explained in a few sentences and at a 5th grade reading level.

[AnotherTraveler]

Do believe that the Divinity of Christ is man's doctrine?

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:3-8 (KJV)

I believe the scriptures.

For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Acts 18:28 (KJV)

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Tim 3:14-17 (KJV)

Notice that it says that all scripture ....is profitable for doctrine, and NOT that doctrine is profitable for scripture, and the direction of this flow is important. God chose by the scriptures to establish doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction, and the verses here DON'T say partly furnished, but throughly furnished.

And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Matt 7:28-29 (KJV)

Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matt 16:12 (KJV)

And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Matt 22:33 (KJV)

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 7:16-17 (KJV)

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Eph 4:9-16 (KJV)

As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

1 Tim 1:3-4 (KJV)

Now, in that we can establish the timeline of the formation of the Trinity doctrine, and it was not taught in the early church, would it not fall under the "teach no other doctrine" charge that is found in 1st Tim?

You didn't really answer Smalcald's question. Do you believe in the divinity of Jesus? Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Do you read? Rev 1:3-8 is talking about Jesus Christ, the ALMIGHTY, of course Jesus is God, He is God manifest in the flesh, according to the scriptures. Why is it so hard for you to take the scriptures as they are, and not try to find trick questions and blurbs to denounce someone that is declaring that we must all believe as the scriptures have said? Instead of reading all the verses I took the time and energy to list, lets instead require, no demand! answers to stupid questions! Why oh why can't we be the people that search the scriptures, as Jesus commanded?

A straight question deserves a straight answer. Simply peppering people with Scripture and expecting them to decipher what you mean doesn't really answer the question. I am not engaging in trick questions. I just asked for a straight answer which you have now provided. I doubt it is as painful as you are pretending.

I am not pretending pain, I am saddened that there is not a focus on what the scripture says. As for your question deserving an answer, I did answer you, though I dispute that you have deserved an answer to a personal question in the midst of a discussion concerning the trinity. You will note that I have not asked you any questions concerning your personal beliefs, though you keep pointing away from the scriptures for no valid reason that I can see.

[AnotherTraveler]

Oh c'mon Shiloh, you know what is meant by that. There absolutely was a "doctrine" formulated by the church that wasn't written in the scriptures, even if it was based on what is in the scriptures.

The concept was already in the Bible though. For it to be a doctrine of men, it would have to have its point of origin in human intellect.

for example (not looking at that list) they argued about the "substance" of the Holy Spirit because the word "anointed" comes from a greek word meaning "a substance rubbed in" because they had no greek word equivalent to Ruach HaKodesh.

Do you think the Holy Spirit is made of a substance?

Is that not implying something the scriptures don't actually say?

First of all, who is "they?" Secondly, what was the final decision "they" arrived at???

Of course the Holy Spirit is not a physical substance. I think it would be obvious to anyone that the use of "anointing" would be metaphorical. The word "anoint" means to "to rub" and since the Holy Spirit is not a physical substance rubbed into us, the use of the term anointing has a more spiritual/metphorical usage.

Additionally, "substance" is also used to refer to other things other than physical substances. In Colossians, Paul states that the Festivals, Sabbaths and New Moons are shadows of things to come but the "substance" is of Christ. In that place, the word "substance" refers to the focus, or the main idea. In the same way, the "substance of the Holy Spirit" can refer to the reality of the Holy Spirit.

I agree that the triune nature of God is in the Word...but the "doctrine" of the Trinity is confusing and unnecessarily cumbersome to explain for most of us (excepting theologians like yourself)

If by "the doctrine of the Trinity" you are referring to what is contained in the Anathasian Creed, you are mistaken. The teaching of the Trinity can be explained in a few sentences and at a 5th grade reading level.

If it can be explained at a 5th grade reading level and in just a few sentences, then why isn't it? You make such a claim, then by all means do so, otherwise, it would again appear that you are making general statements that are not fact. I don't find a reference for this claim, though I have referenced my statements through scriptures and several internet sources, which you refer to as "peppering", I refer to as backing my statements up with sources beyond, "in my gut I feel...."

[AnotherTraveler]

In that I think I have made my point that the scriptures are the final authority concerning doctrine, I will now withdraw from this discussion. Though I will continue to read what is posted, I will not be responding on this thread anymore. Blessings brethren

[Guest shiloh357]

Do believe that the Divinity of Christ is man's doctrine?

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:3-8 (KJV)

I believe the scriptures.

For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Acts 18:28 (KJV)

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Tim 3:14-17 (KJV)

Notice that it says that all scripture ....is profitable for doctrine, and NOT that doctrine is profitable for scripture, and the direction of this flow is important. God chose by the scriptures to establish doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction, and the verses here DON'T say partly furnished, but throughly furnished.

And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Matt 7:28-29 (KJV)

Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matt 16:12 (KJV)

And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Matt 22:33 (KJV)

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 7:16-17 (KJV)

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Eph 4:9-16 (KJV)

As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

1 Tim 1:3-4 (KJV)

Now, in that we can establish the timeline of the formation of the Trinity doctrine, and it was not taught in the early church, would it not fall under the "teach no other doctrine" charge that is found in 1st Tim?

You didn't really answer Smalcald's question. Do you believe in the divinity of Jesus? Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Do you read? Rev 1:3-8 is talking about Jesus Christ, the ALMIGHTY, of course Jesus is God, He is God manifest in the flesh, according to the scriptures. Why is it so hard for you to take the scriptures as they are, and not try to find trick questions and blurbs to denounce someone that is declaring that we must all believe as the scriptures have said? Instead of reading all the verses I took the time and energy to list, lets instead require, no demand! answers to stupid questions! Why oh why can't we be the people that search the scriptures, as Jesus commanded?

A straight question deserves a straight answer. Simply peppering people with Scripture and expecting them to decipher what you mean doesn't really answer the question. I am not engaging in trick questions. I just asked for a straight answer which you have now provided. I doubt it is as painful as you are pretending.

I am not pretending pain, I am saddened that there is not a focus on what the scripture says. As for your question deserving an answer, I did answer you, though I dispute that you have deserved an answer to a personal question in the midst of a discussion concerning the trinity. You will note that I have not asked you any questions concerning your personal beliefs, though you keep pointing away from the scriptures for no valid reason that I can see.

I am not pointing away from Scripture at all. The question was not personal at all and I did not say that I deserved the answer. I said it was straight question. You were asked a straight question and I said that straight questions should get straight answers, not evasive answers. Peppering people with Scriptures with little to no commentary is not really helpful, and in this particular case, it doesn't really answer the question. A simple "Yes, I believe in the deity of Jesus" would have sufficed. Was that too much to expect??

[Guest shiloh357]

If it can be explained at a 5th grade reading level and in just a few sentences, then why isn't it?

It often is. It is the detractors that muddy water and make it more complicated in order to find fault with it. Most often, I find that people who reject the Trinity, do so based on incorrect assumptions, as well as misperceptions as to what the doctrine actually says.

You make such a claim, then by all means do so, otherwise, it would again appear that you are making general statements that are not fact.

I would be happy to do so. Its really, really simple. "God" is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God is one in essence, but He is comprised of three persons. "God" is WHAT He is. "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit" are WHO He is. That is how He operates in Scripture. One God, who is one "being," yet three persons who are all equally God. It is a mystery that cannot be fully understood, but then we are not meant to understand it; we are simply expected to believe it.

I don't find a reference for this claim, though I have referenced my statements through scriptures and several internet sources, which you refer to as "peppering", I refer to as backing my statements up with sources beyond, "in my gut I feel...."

Peppering, or just making a long list of Scriptures in support for your position does not qualify as "backing up your statements with Scripture" if it is not really clear what it is you expect someone else to see. It may be crystal clear to YOU what your list means, but you cannot take for granted that your readers will make the same connection.

[Smalcald]

This is no joke or arcane theological debate, no sideline issue. This is about who Jesus is, who we are as believers in Jesus, it is about if someone is a follower of Christ or not; do we worship the same God? Shiloh has shown that this is indeed something simple AND complex, like the revelation of God Himself.

I worship the God Shiloh has described above that is who I pray to, if someone does not worship that God, they worship a different God than I do and they may be wonderful wonderful people, but they are not my brothers in Christ they are of a different faith.

Frankly the Trinity if properly understood and described would make more sense to an observant Jew than any other faith about Christ; either Christ is God AND Christ is the Son; or He is neither. As Lewis said, Jesus was either the Lord God; Liar or lunatic, we must choose.

[Botz]

This is no joke or arcane theological debate, no sideline issue. This is about who Jesus is, who we are as believers in Jesus, it is about if someone is a follower of Christ or not; do we worship the same God? Shiloh has shown that this is indeed something simple AND complex, like the revelation of God Himself.

I haven't noticed this debate bordering on the jocular, or just a theological debate for the sake of it...I think all participants have brought relevant information, and what they believe is a biblical perspective...as is the nature of any discussion like this, some is more substantive than others. The simplicity and complexity of the revealed nature of G-d is self-evident within the Scriptures themselves

I worship the God Shiloh has described above that is who I pray to, if someone does not worship that God, they worship a different God than I do and they may be wonderful wonderful people, but they are not my brothers in Christ they are of a different faith.

I can't understand why you 'dropped' this statement in...I haven't seen the slightest hint that anyone hesitates to believe the way G-d has been revealed to us from Scripture...just a bit of reluctance to fully endorse the doctrine of the Trinity...not that they believe what it encompasses is wrong, because it only regurgitates in a consolidated format what is already demonstrated in the Bible...but because of the persistant over-emphasis of the 'Trinity' that seems to subtlely shift the focus of the Word of G-d to the doctrinal machinations of theologians.

Frankly the Trinity if properly understood and described would make more sense to an observant Jew than any other faith about Christ; either Christ is God AND Christ is the Son; or He is neither. As Lewis said, Jesus was either the Lord God; Liar or lunatic, we must choose.

Again...I have to escape from this 'Trinity' thing....I am not going to promote and debate this misnomer (in the sense that it has become another title of G-d), especially with any observant Jews....I believe in what the doctrine of the Trinity seeks to uphold and safe-guard...inasmuch as it is fully referenced in the Scriptures...but I want to promote Yeshua, not the Trinity, I want to talk of the Father, not the Trinity, I want to introduce the Holy Ghost, not the Trinity.

PS...I think all of us debating here know whom Jesus is, and don't need to prove the credentials of our faith in Him.