Trinity

[EricH]

Yet explaining a theological doctrine put together by greco-Romans, a few centuries after Yeshua, as a "checklist" of how you must think is beyond that. It might be a fun debate in christian circles but it is rather unnecessary for the cause of the gospel before salvation.

Just because the people that developed a clear articulation of the gospel were greco-roman does not diminish the doctrine in any way. If your point is that is it not necessary to fully understand the doctrine of the Trinity to be saved, then I fully agree with you. But if that is your point, I am not sure how referring to the ethnic back-ground of the folks God used to develop the doctrine is helpful.

[Guest shiloh357]

Did you understand the mechanics of the "Trinity doctrine" before being saved?

And yet if the unsaved should question

[Botz]

So we should not teach who God is as it might offend someone?

This to me is the problem with denying the Trinity to make nice with different groups of people.

It is a core issue when you think about it, what does it say about us that we cannot even agree on who God is? Where have we gone and what has become of this faith when we can't even agree on that?

I don't know to whom this was addressed Smalcald as you did not clarify it...unfortunately I was rather busy yesterday and could not get on to reply to anything....if it to me was, please note that my whole emphasis was that I personally did not want to high-light the Trinity. It has nothing to do with not wanting to offend anyone, and I have already stated that what is taught through trinitarian doctrine, is what is found in the Scriptures...but it has been extracted, consolidated and bundled together in such a way that 'The Trinity' becomes a stumbling block to many people especially the Jewish people...therefore I am not prepared to promote it...or get side-tracked by it.

Purely from a Scriptural stand-point, G-d is not 'The Trinity' and was never known as such...but the doctrine of the Trinity is based on what is revealed in Scripture...otherwise I find that we are giving Him a man-made title that is inconsistant with the revealed names of .....G-d...I hope you can see the distinction I am labouring to make...it is not out of fear to offend....it is not from trying to be 'nice'..it is from wanting to show people the L-rd, not the Trinity.

[Guest yod]

Did you understand the mechanics of the "Trinity doctrine" before being saved?

And yet if the unsaved should question

[Botz]

Did you understand the mechanics of the "Trinity doctrine" before being saved?

And yet if the unsaved should question

[Botz]

Just so people have a reference....

Athanasian Creed

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1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

[Guest yod]

Wowsers....now I'm really confused about the Trinity

I agree that God is incomprehensable

[Botz]

Wowsers....now I'm really confused about the Trinity

I agree that God is incomprehensable

I agree too mate. ....apart from what He has revealed to us.

[Guest shiloh357]

Bible teachers should be able to teach the bible. Where does the bible teach this "doctrine" as if it is necessary?

Just because something is not necessary for salvation does not mean it is not necessary.

The Bible does not mention any such thing called "the Trinity" nor does it reference it as necessary, but that really misses the point. Anti-trinitarians reject the Trinity often because either they do not believe in the deity of Jesus, OR because they do not believe in the personhood or the deity of the Holy Spirit.

The elements that are present ARE necessary at some point. Perhaps not initially to be saved, but that is not where it ends. I have discovered that along with rejecting the deity of Jesus comes a entire host of other false teachings as well. The deity of Jesus and the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit are fundamental, essential defining elements of the true New Testament faith. They cannot be compromised or set aside as peripheral issues.

The teaching of the Trinity is a means of preserving those elements of what we believe. It is not an attempt to define God, but to codify the revelation He has given us of Himself.

My point has nothing to do with bible teachers though. It is an unnecessary topic to the lost....and pretty much everyone else too.

Not really. It is necessary to everyone to some extent. It is unecessary to YOU, but it is not unecessary at all. You can get saved without knowing a whit about it, but it is essential to growing as a Christian and as a defense against false teachings by Yahwist cults and other groups that seek to subvert the nature of God.

The reference to Greco-Romans is about humanistic philosophy. Man has this need to measure and define everything.

And how you do know that such a need is not put their by God? What is wrong with studying and searching and trying to understand the things of God?? Of course, we will not know everything in 1,000 lifetimes, but meaning is found in the search itself. That is not "humanistic." You are demeaning the natural curiosity and need for answers that God has hardwired into all of us as humans. It is what makes us explorers, inventors, discoverers, scientists and so forth. Every modern advance in this world has come from the same type of natural curiosity you condemn when it is applied to the Bible.

Look at the meticulous nature of talmudic/Torah study. The wisdom of the Rabbis is based on the same type of desire to search out and measure every word and to compare passages and there are of course the endless debates over things that the average person would brush off as meaningless and trivial. Yet, the Rabbis learned that nothing contained in Scripture can be considered trivial.

If the Lord thought this was as important He would spell it out more clearly as necessary.

He doesn't...

The Bible is designed to be searched out and studied. There is no single verse, passage, chapter or book of the Bible that contains all of the truth on any given matter. I can think of some things in Scripture that are not "spelled out" but that can be seen when all of the relevant passages are compared together (such as the future millennial kingdom).

[Smalcald]

So we should not teach who God is as it might offend someone?

This to me is the problem with denying the Trinity to make nice with different groups of people.

It is a core issue when you think about it, what does it say about us that we cannot even agree on who God is? Where have we gone and what has become of this faith when we can't even agree on that?

I don't know to whom this was addressed Smalcald as you did not clarify it...unfortunately I was rather busy yesterday and could not get on to reply to anything....if it to me was, please note that my whole emphasis was that I personally did not want to high-light the Trinity. It has nothing to do with not wanting to offend anyone, and I have already stated that what is taught through trinitarian doctrine, is what is found in the Scriptures...but it has been extracted, consolidated and bundled together in such a way that 'The Trinity' becomes a stumbling block to many people especially the Jewish people...therefore I am not prepared to promote it...or get side-tracked by it.

Purely from a Scriptural stand-point, G-d is not 'The Trinity' and was never known as such...but the doctrine of the Trinity is based on what is revealed in Scripture...otherwise I find that we are giving Him a man-made title that is inconsistant with the revealed names of .....G-d...I hope you can see the distinction I am labouring to make...it is not out of fear to offend....it is not from trying to be 'nice'..it is from wanting to show people the L-rd, not the Trinity.

When you and I show people the Lord as long as we are True and speak the Truth about who the Lord is, I have no problem dropping the semantics. What I mean is let us say a particular word such as the "trinity" is a loaded term for some people I think we could show them the Lord without using the term Trinity. But when we do that we must in fact show them the "Trinity" as that is who the Lord IS.

My point is not about the words but about Jesus. People are often much much more comfortable with proclaiming Jesus as human or only a prophet or only a lesser "son", but in fact Jesus is God is divine in all ways, scripture tells us that and shows us that. The reason this is key is it goes to the heart of our entire faith answering the question: who is Jesus? It is indeed a prime objective of Satan to give us Jesus, as long as we pull Him down from the Crown of God, as long as we remove the Divinity of Christ, as long as we remove Jesus from the Godhead; Satan is fine with Jesus. This is my concern, I am not saying that you are doing that in any way, I just wanted to make clear that in my opinion this is not an arcane theological point, but is indeed important, very important.

When you show people the Lord you are in fact showing them the Trinity.

Is it fair to not be totally up front about this, stumbling block or not? I mean at a very basic level, when you speak to a Jewish person about praying to Jesus to ask for the forgiveness of their sins and to come into their heart, just by saying that you are saying that Jesus can be worshipped directly. But how can a Jew ever worship anything but God? How can we ever worship anything but God? We can't, and thus we right of the bat in speaking to an unbeliever be it Jew or Gentile proclaim the Trinity when we ask them to pray to Jesus.