Israel is Israel?

[Guest yod]

For the love of me--I did not know that there were 3-4-5 different Christians. Last time I checked my Bible there were only, a Christian, singular. All who receive Jesus Christ are Christian, His. That will include anyone, no matter who it is. No matter when it was that they accepted Him or when they will accept Him as their savior, they are Christian...

Leodrex:

That is how it was until a predominantly gentile "church" decided to separate itself from the olive tree of Romans 11. Since then, there have been thousands upon thousands of denominations trying to distinguish themselves from other "christians"

Did that seperation happen before or after the third century in your opinion Yod?

long before....it was already beginning in the book of Romans

Origen invented the theological basis to cement it early in the 2nd century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

[Smalcald]

Is the bible that we read today valid or is it corrupted by this gentile Church?

What I am getting at is the development of the cannon, what books would make up the New Testament what books would not. There have indeed been allegations that the New Testament itself is anti-Semitic as which letters would be chosen to be in that Testament was not completed until the third century.

If people like Origen were involved in selecting the books of the New Testament, what would be in what would be out; would not their anti-Semitism have corrupted this very process?

I mean the bible as we know it today; did not exist as one book when you say that this problem first started. Maybe other books should have been in the bible that were rejected by the Church Fathers?

These are honest questions I just wanted to know how you handle that issue?

[Guest yod]

Is the bible that we read today valid or is it corrupted by this gentile Church?

What I am getting at is the development of the cannon, what books would make up the New Testament what books would not. There have indeed been allegations that the New Testament itself is anti-Semitic as which letters would be chosen to be in that Testament was not completed until the third century.

If people like Origen were involved in selecting the books of the New Testament, what would be in what would be out; would not their anti-Semitism have corrupted this very process?

I mean the bible as we know it today; did not exist as one book when you say that this problem first started. Maybe other books should have been in the bible that were rejected by the Church Fathers?

These are honest questions I just wanted to know how you handle that issue?

I have to accept that God is sovereign. As you are well aware, there were books selected and added which should not have been. It took centuries to correct this.

The reason we can know what is scripture and what isn't has nothing to do with the church, but more with which writings were considered holy by the jews.

Regarding the sovereignty of God, I believe that He was able to turn the tragic history of christian anti-semitism into something good because it has preserved the jewish people as distinct through the isolation. I often wonder if I would have been able to oppose the tide of rejection had I lived in such a time as that.

Would I have stood in 1930s Germany? Oh, I hope so...because we may get the opportunity to find out again in the future.

[Smalcald]

Is the bible that we read today valid or is it corrupted by this gentile Church?

What I am getting at is the development of the cannon, what books would make up the New Testament what books would not. There have indeed been allegations that the New Testament itself is anti-Semitic as which letters would be chosen to be in that Testament was not completed until the third century.

If people like Origen were involved in selecting the books of the New Testament, what would be in what would be out; would not their anti-Semitism have corrupted this very process?

I mean the bible as we know it today; did not exist as one book when you say that this problem first started. Maybe other books should have been in the bible that were rejected by the Church Fathers?

These are honest questions I just wanted to know how you handle that issue?

I have to accept that God is sovereign. As you are well aware, there were books selected and added which should not have been. It took centuries to correct this.

The reason we can know what is scripture and what isn't has nothing to do with the church, but more with which writings were considered holy by the jews.

Regarding the sovereignty of God, I believe that He was able to turn the tragic history of christian anti-semitism into something good because it has preserved the jewish people as distinct through the isolation. I often wonder if I would have been able to oppose the tide of rejection had I lived in such a time as that.

Would I have stood in 1930s Germany? Oh, I hope so...because we may get the opportunity to find out again in the future.

Yes I see your point.

I will say what I believe is that the correction you speak of, who did God use to do that? Secondly the books of the New Testament, which ones would be in the New Testament and which ones would not be in the New Testament, I don't know how that could have been done by what books that the Jew's considered Holy, in that those decisions were not made by the Jewish Church prior to the Church Fathers, but made indeed by the very Church Fathers.

But maybe I am misunderstanding you?

[Guest yod]

It starts with the "early church fathers" and goes through today with almost EVERY period of church history in between.

Then let me ask you while Botz is still searching - can you provide one specific example of any congregation of the Lord

[Smalcald]

I can find Protestant Congregations that today right now support the destruction of the Jews, that also support Hitler.

It shouldn't be to hard to find historical examples.

[nikki1]

I can find Protestant Congregations that today right now support the destruction of the Jews, that also support Hitler.

It shouldn't be to hard to find historical examples.

I would not call that a Christian congregation or a congregation belonging to the Lord Jesus Christ

Blessings,

[Guest shiloh357]

I can find Protestant Congregations that today right now support the destruction of the Jews, that also support Hitler.

It shouldn't be to hard to find historical examples.

I would not call that a Christian congregation or a congregation belonging to the Lord Jesus Christ

Blessings,

See, therein lies the problem

Historically, the church has been the chief persecutors of the Jewish people. The early church fathers saw the Jews as the emblem of God's contempt, and as a rejected people sentenced to wander throughout the world in misery.

That stigma continued for centuries. Even today, while contempt for Jews by Christians is not expressed in pogroms and inquisitions, and synagogue burnings, it is expressed as Replacement Theology, and as a repudiation of modern state of Israel and so forth. But I digress...

The early church fathers provide a lot of foundational material for the church today. Men like Augustine, Origen, Ignatius, Chrysostom and others who were avowed Jew haters and made no secret of their absolute hatred and complete contempt for the Jews, are often quoted from pulpits.

So either they were Christian that hated Jews, or they were not Christians, did belong to the "Lord's Church" and thus many have been basing their theology on the writings and teachings of unsaved men.

[nikki1]

I can find Protestant Congregations that today right now support the destruction of the Jews, that also support Hitler.

It shouldn't be to hard to find historical examples.

I would not call that a Christian congregation or a congregation belonging to the Lord Jesus Christ

Blessings,

See, therein lies the problem

Historically, the church has been the chief persecutors of the Jewish people. The early church fathers saw the Jews as the emblem of God's contempt, and as a rejected people sentenced to wander throughout the world in misery.

That stigma continued for centuries. Even today, while contempt for Jews by Christians is not expressed in pogroms and inquisitions, and synagogue burnings, it is expressed as Replacement Theology, and as a repudiation of modern state of Israel and so forth. But I digress...

The early church fathers provide a lot of foundational material for the church today. Men like Augustine, Origen, Ignatius, Chrysostom and others who were avowed Jew haters and made no secret of their absolute hatred and complete contempt for the Jews, are often quoted from pulpits.

So either they were Christian that hated Jews, or they were not Christians, did belong to the "Lord's Church" and thus many have been basing their theology on the writings and teachings of unsaved men.

Blessings, shiloh357

In all honesty, I don't see this as a problem, except here at Worthy where this topic constantly causes strife and discord.

God will deal with the men you mention at the judgment.

The teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ command for his followers to love one another, and even our enemies and do not promote the murdering of any person or race, so obviously they were what the Bible calls wolves in sheep's clothing, and not Christians. No person born again of God having the Holy Spirit living inside of them could do such a thing. Most Jewish people that I know understand this once it is explained to them and do not harbor such bitterness as I have seen here in thread after thread on this topic since I have been here. It really serves no purpose and doesn't glorify God at all. We must put off our bitterness, and forgive others for offenses done against us and move forward in the love of Christ that He wants us have and share with others. We can't do that if we are harboring anger and bitterness, which is a tool of satan to rob us of our joy. We must not allow this because the Bible says the joy of the Lord is our strength. Gentile Christians are tortured and persecuted every day around the world, and have to forgive their torturers the same as Messianic Jews do who have lost family members in the Holocaust. Gentile Christians died in the Holocaust too. Jews, messianic or not and Christians will always be persecuted and hated in this world. That is why we need the joy of the Lord to strengthen us.

[Smalcald]

I can find Protestant Congregations that today right now support the destruction of the Jews, that also support Hitler.

It shouldn't be to hard to find historical examples.

I would not call that a Christian congregation or a congregation belonging to the Lord Jesus Christ

Blessings,

See, therein lies the problem

Historically, the church has been the chief persecutors of the Jewish people. The early church fathers saw the Jews as the emblem of God's contempt, and as a rejected people sentenced to wander throughout the world in misery.

That stigma continued for centuries. Even today, while contempt for Jews by Christians is not expressed in pogroms and inquisitions, and synagogue burnings, it is expressed as Replacement Theology, and as a repudiation of modern state of Israel and so forth. But I digress...

The early church fathers provide a lot of foundational material for the church today. Men like Augustine, Origen, Ignatius, Chrysostom and others who were avowed Jew haters and made no secret of their absolute hatred and complete contempt for the Jews, are often quoted from pulpits.

So either they were Christian that hated Jews, or they were not Christians, did belong to the "Lord's Church" and thus many have been basing their theology on the writings and teachings of unsaved men.

Shiloh,

How would you handle the development of the New Testament? You are a student of history and I know that you understand when the books that were chosen to be in the New Testament were chosen and who God chose to make those decisions. They all lived after the men you listed above and many were profoundly impacted by those men.

It seems that if the early Church was that corrupt, how could we now trust what we have for a New Testament?