Who is my "brother" in Christ?

[eis]

Paul knew that baptism without knowledge or understanding was worth nothing.

So, according to you, if a person has been baptized, but not baptized for the remission of sins, they are not saved.

According to Scripture.

Acts 2:38-39

38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

NASB

Would you say baptizing people without them having heard the Word would be a saving baptism?

Edited April 5, 2010 by eis

[eis]

Some here state that salvation comes at the point of faith (believing), well does it?

Yes it does.

Paul says confess and believe, then believe and confess. What if one does not confess, will he be saved.

Confession is born of faith. Confession of Christ as Lord can only come from someone who beleives. Confession is a public testimony of faith.

So you are saying one MUST confess and repent in order to be saved?

[eis]

Repentance is a given. Again, a true believer will repent. You cannot separate repentance from faith. A person who is truly saved repents of sin every day. Repentance is the fruit of faith.

But if one is saved at the point of faith they don't need repentance or confession no doubt???

So, now whe have truly saved and untruly saved? Are such described in the Scripture?

[Scare Bear]

You have to make the decision to receive the gift. No one said that salvation is completely up to Jesus. You are missing the point. The point is that your works, nothing you do contributes to redemption. Salvation is not you and God working together. You have nothing to add to the work of redemption. You have nothing to contribute to the plan of salvation.

Yes, but that is not a matter of you contributing to salvation. You are not performing a work necessary for salvation. Faith is simply the vehicle through salvation is received.

Salvation has already been accomplished. Salvation is not somethnig you can create out of your own effort. Salvation is not a prize or a reward you earn. Salvation is a person. Jesus is salvation. You cannot earn Salvation. To receive salvation is receive Jesus.

You just said you have to make the decision to receive the gift. That is a work on your part. If you don't decide to do so you can't be saved so yes, you do have a say so in your salvation, you can either accept the gift or turn it down. You can still later in life choose to continue with the gift or turn it down. I just find irony in your statement when you say "You have nothing to add to the work of redemption. You have nothing to contribute to the plan of salvation." Yet Jesus and His apostles and you have said one needs to believe and have faith. That contributes to your salvation does it not? That's a work on your part isn't it?

I am not saying that you alone can save yourself. I am saying that you do have to obey God's commands and if you don't you cannot be saved... Noah was not "saved" first, he still had a task to complete. If he didn't do it he would have been lost. Yes because of faith we are to obey the commands given to us but we are not saved simply by faith. It's like the story of the man drowning in the river and he prays to God to save him. A man on a boat passes by and asks the other man if he needs help and the man replies "no thanks, God will save me." After about 2 more boats the man finally drowns and when he asks "Why didn't you save me?" he is told he was sent 3 boats. That man could have been saved not only by his faith BUT he also had to get in the boat.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Acts 26:20 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

We ALL will be judged according to what we have done, good or bad.

[Guest shiloh357]

Some here state that salvation comes at the point of faith (believing), well does it?

Yes it does.

Paul says confess and believe, then believe and confess. What if one does not confess, will he be saved.

Confession is born of faith. Confession of Christ as Lord can only come from someone who beleives. Confession is a public testimony of faith.

So you are saying one MUST confess and repent in order to be saved?

No, I am saying that confession and repentance are the response of saving faith. It's not a case of they MUST. It is a case of they WILL.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 5 2010, 12:18 PM)

Repentance is a given. Again, a true believer will repent. You cannot separate repentance from faith. A person who is truly saved repents of sin every day. Repentance is the fruit of faith.

But if one is saved at the point of faith they don't need repentance or confession no doubt???

That is not what I said. I said a person who is truly saved, will never stop repenting of sin every day. Repentance is the fruit, or outgrowth of faith.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 5 2010, 12:21 PM)

QUOTE

Paul knew that baptism without knowledge or understanding was worth nothing.

So, according to you, if a person has been baptized, but not baptized for the remission of sins, they are not saved.

According to Scripture.

Acts 2:38-39

38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

NASB

Would you say baptizing people without them having heard the Word would be a saving baptism?

Your sloppy, bargain-basement exegesis aside, that is not what I am talking about. I am simply pointing out that according to you, everyone who has ever believed on Christ, and was baptized, but was not baptized according to YOUR understanding of what baptism is for, is unsaved.

It is a major reason why the Church of Christ is really just a cult. The most sucessful cults in the world use the Bible. Mormons, SDAs, Jehovah's Witnesses, Church of Christ, etc.

One the signs of a cult is claiming that only their group is the one that is really saved.

[Floatingaxe]

So you are saying one MUST confess and repent in order to be saved?

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord isn

[eis]

Some here state that salvation comes at the point of faith (believing), well does it?

Yes it does.

Paul says confess and believe, then believe and confess. What if one does not confess, will he be saved.

Confession is born of faith. Confession of Christ as Lord can only come from someone who beleives. Confession is a public testimony of faith.

So you are saying one MUST confess and repent in order to be saved?

No, I am saying that confession and repentance are the response of saving faith. It's not a case of they MUST. It is a case of they WILL.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 5 2010, 12:18 PM)

Repentance is a given. Again, a true believer will repent. You cannot separate repentance from faith. A person who is truly saved repents of sin every day. Repentance is the fruit of faith.

But if one is saved at the point of faith they don't need repentance or confession no doubt???

That is not what I said. I said a person who is truly saved, will never stop repenting of sin every day. Repentance is the fruit, or outgrowth of faith.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Apr 5 2010, 12:21 PM)

QUOTE

Paul knew that baptism without knowledge or understanding was worth nothing.

So, according to you, if a person has been baptized, but not baptized for the remission of sins, they are not saved.

According to Scripture.

Acts 2:38-39

38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

NASB

Would you say baptizing people without them having heard the Word would be a saving baptism?

Your sloppy, bargain-basement exegesis aside, that is not what I am talking about. I am simply pointing out that according to you, everyone who has ever believed on Christ, and was baptized, but was not baptized according to YOUR understanding of what baptism is for, is unsaved.

It is a major reason why the Church of Christ is really just a cult. The most sucessful cults in the world use the Bible. Mormons, SDAs, Jehovah's Witnesses, Church of Christ, etc.

One the signs of a cult is claiming that only their group is the one that is really saved.

I never said the "Church of Christ" was the only saved group.

I see several problems with exegesis here, you deny the baptism is water baptism. The profound thread of what baptism IS throughout Scripture is tied to either water, Holy Spirit and with fire. The most common usage is an immersion in water as applied by example, command and practice. You declare, the first I've ever heard, that baptism doesn't mean baptism in water. That denial is grossly sloppy and fails to tie to the command for men to baptize for the remission of sins. Somehow you have adapted the erroneous concept that baptism spoken of in the Scripture is only by water where water is mentioned and maybe not even then when the Eunuch is considered. (Granted you personally may have not made that statement, but the indications are that you understanding is such.) Aside form that you never acknowledge that baptism by water as spoken in Acts 2:38 is for remission of sins.

You and I agree that it is by faith that we are saved through grace, not of works lest anyone should boast. Our disagreement is how we come into the saving grace. I again state that the Scripture teaches that we are save by faith but it will be a faith that will be complete and lead one to the acceptance of grace not at the point of belief, but at the point of obedience to meet God where grace is delivered. Faith/belief happens in the heart, confession happens at the lips as a result of the heart and is a "doing". Repentance is a doing that one does from the heart. Being buried in baptism is a response of the believer to have his sins washed away/remitted and for the believer to be clothed in Christ.

Somewhere you have been erroneously taught that every NT practice has an OT counterpart. Hence baptism is invalid because it was a practice adopted without OT ordinance. Show me where this is so.

You failed to answer the question. Can one be saved if they don't repent and/or confess? I would say NO, but then I guess that would be DOING something.

Edited April 5, 2010 by eis

[Guest shiloh357]

I see several problems with exegesis here, you deny the baptism is water baptism.

No I did not. Again, you are not framing what I said correctly. What I said was that not all references to baptism are talking about water immersion.

You declare, the first I've ever heard, that baptism doesn't mean baptism in water. That denial is grossly sloppy and fails to tie to the command for men to baptize for the remission of sins.

the problem here is with reading comprehension on your part.

[Scare Bear]

Boastful works??? Now you are trying to change the working of the passage. Paul is not making a distinction between works and "boastful works." He is saying that it is by grace through faith so that no one can take the credit, so that no one can claim that they, by their own effort gained salvation.

If you have 6 minutes of your time I believe this guy can tell you exactly what I have been saying Twisted Scripture

James is not talking about be justified before God. He is referring to our works validating our testimony in the sight of men. You have completely butchered the text.

See the last post acts 26:20

But they were done AFTER he was justified before God. He did not do them to be justified before God.

So are you trying to tell me that he would have been saved even if he decided not do these things?

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

They weren't saved yet. Yes faith moved him but he still had a task to complete.

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. (And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, Rom. 4:1-5)

Abraham is shown as being saved by faith apart from works.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? (law of Moses)No, but by the law of faith. (law of Christ) 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Paul is speaking about the Jews at the time who boasted that just because they were of Abraham that they already had a free ride to heaven and he was telling them this was not the case.

Back up to Romans 2:25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

You continue to tell me to look at things in context, well I suggest to read the chapters before and after to get a complete view of what Paul is actually saying.

A person who is truly saved will have a life of corresponding deeds. Those who profess Chrsit but continue to live in sin will show by their works that they were never saved.

So if their works condemn them then so their faith AND works would save them wouldn't you say?

[eis]

I see several problems with exegesis here, you deny the baptism is water baptism.

No I did not. Again, you are not framing what I said correctly. What I said was that not all references to baptism are talking about water immersion.

You declare, the first I've ever heard, that baptism doesn't mean baptism in water. That denial is grossly sloppy and fails to tie to the command for men to baptize for the remission of sins.

the problem here is with reading comprehension on your part.

One problem may be that this thread is 42 pages long and several days old. Keeping everyone and their "exegesis" straight is a little difficult.