Who is my "brother" in Christ?

March 26, 2010

QUOTE
Really??? Where does the Bible say that? Show ONE person in the Bible who received Christ but went to hell anyway.

First of all Jesus was referring to those who simply offer religious lip service. Jesus did not say that not every who receives me as savior is going to heaven. What you are saying is that if someone was not saved the way YOU were, they are not Christians.

It is a very cultic and nonChristian view point.

I can't tell you that because it hasn't happened yet.
But you said it was in the Bible. Show one place in the Bible where it says that you can believe on Jesus and go to hell.

But I can tell you what the bible says about it. That those who do the will of the Father will enter into heaven.
yes, but those who do the will of the Father were saved and their obedience is an outgrowth of the salvation they already received. They did not go to heaven because of what they did. We do the will of our Father because we are saved, not to get saved. It is dead religion that seeks to earn heaven.

If they are not saved the way the bible states it they will not enter into heaven. There are many false doctrines, false prophets who claim to know Jesus and teach things like infant baptism, snake handling, gay marriage... so you're telling me a gay person will go to heaven because they accepted Jesus? They don't have to turn from being gay?

It is Jesus that changes a person. You cannot change your self. Salvation is among other things, an inner transformation by the power of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is not behavioral modification. You don't change to be saved. You get saved and the Lord transforms you from the inside out. A person who is gay is transformed by Jesus. What you don't understand is that everything God commands, He also provides. God does not hang salvation in front of us like carrot on a stick. It is not something we have to be good enough to deserve.

The children of Israel were saved out of bondage in Egypt by the blood of a lamb. God did not come to them with His law and demand they keep the law in order to be saved from bondage. Rather, God saved them first and then taught them what it meant to be righteous and holy. That type still carries over to today. We are not commanded to be good enough to merit salvation. We are saved and it is God who imputes righteousness to us. He is the one who makes us acceptable. it is not something we can do in our own strength.

Dear Nebula and shiloh357,

I have been reading your discussions and you don't seem to be addressing the critical points of salvation. Jesus came to do two specific things concerning our salvation. 1. To pay the penalty of sin pay which is death. He paid the sin debt of the world regardless of what one believes about Christ. All of mankind's sin debt is fully paid. Because Christ paid the debt, we (all sinners) owe the debt to Him. Christ now has the authority to judge each of us. He judges the church now in this life and will judge all others at the White Throne Judgment. We are all saved from death now but we are not saved from continuing in sin. 2. Christ also came to give us all abundant life. It is not God's intention to bring us back to life only to continue living in sin. Christ is going to change us all from the inside out, to be made in His image. This is a separate process from what Christ accomplished on the cross. Christ will change us all but He starts with His church first. That is why the church is called the first fruits. We, the church, are first to be changed and to dwell in the Kingdom of Heaven. All others who are resurrected in the second resurrection will be changed in the Lake of Fire age. At the end of that age, all will be in Christ and Christ will present the kingdom up to God the Father. The full harvest of mankind will be complete. No one will be left to rot in the fields as is so commonly taught. That is as far as scripture goes. It is that simple. Christ is the savior. He does the saving. First, by giving all men life (already done at the cross) and secondly, by stopping us from continuing in sin (repentance, receiving the Holy Spirit and being judged). Christ does all the work. Water baptism only symbolizes the conversion process - IT IS NOT THE CONVERSION PROCESS THOUGH. Water baptism is for spiritual babes to have something they can see to show them what Christ is going to do spiritually for us. The entire conversion process happens inwardly (spiritually if you will). No ritual or act on our part can change us on the inside. We are changed on the inside by Christ first. That is why Christ said that the kingdom of God is within you. The physical comes first to symbolize what Chirst will do spiritually. Only the spiritual will last, the flesh counts for nothing, along with all rituals and ceremonies. When Christ is ready to change us, he will appear to us just as He did to Paul on the road to Damascus. Only with us, He appears inwardly and not outwardly as He did with Paul. That day, against Paul plans, Christ turns Paul's life upside down. It was Christ's work to do this, not Paul's. And just as Paul was converted, so will all mankind be. Scripture says that Paul conversion was a pattern for all others to follow. The church is first and then all others at the end of the lake of fire age.

I know this is a very simplified and brief explanation of salvation and if anyone is interested, I would be happy to expand on it in detail with scriptures. For now I will leave you with the words of John the Baptist: Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins for world! If the sins of the world are removed, then who can not be saved. We merely have to wait for God's plan to unfold in due time:

1Tim 2: 4-6 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom of ALL, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME.

May the Lord bless all who seek Him and His Truth,

Joe in Arkansas

March 26, 2010

Dear Nebula and shiloh357,
I have been reading your discussions and you don't seem to be addressing the critical points of salvation.

Joe, with all due respect, I am addressing salvation in terms of what is relevant to this discussion. This thread pertains to whether or not a person not baptized in the Church of Christ is a Christian. I am addressing the errors that are being presented to me.

So, if you want to discuss salvation in greater depth and detail, then the appropiate board ettiquette is to start your own thread on that subject. You are trying to discuss salvation in a manner that is not in keeping with the topic of this thread, and this is not the thread for the discussion you wish to engage in.

nebula · March 26, 2010

Dear Nebula and shiloh357,
I have been reading your discussions and you don't seem to be addressing the critical points of salvation.

I didn't mention this because I was addressing the issue of baptism with regards to salvation - as Shiloh mentioned. Did I need to go beyond this issue in order to make the point?

Water baptism only symbolizes the conversion process - IT IS NOT THE CONVERSION PROCESS THOUGH.

Eis is the one who is arguing that baptism is the conversion process - not us.

Only with us, He appears inwardly and not outwardly as He did with Paul.

You should hear some of the testimonies coming out of the Muslim world. Jesus is appearing to them!

Scripture says that Paul conversion was a pattern for all others to follow.

It does? Where?

March 26, 2010

Dear Nebula and shiloh357,
I have been reading your discussions and you don't seem to be addressing the critical points of salvation.

Joe, with all due respect, I am addressing salvation in terms of what is relevant to this discussion. This thread pertains to whether or not a person not baptized in the Church of Christ is a Christian. I am addressing the errors that are being presented to me.

So, if you want to discuss salvation in greater depth and detail, then the appropiate board ettiquette is to start your own thread on that subject. You are trying to discuss salvation in a manner that is not in keeping with the topic of this thread, and this is not the thread for the discussion you wish to engage in.

Dear Shiloh357,

I'm sorry that my comments were not appropriate. I have never been a part of any forum until last night. I didn't know there were such rules. When I read that you were discussing water baptism as it relates to salvation, I didn't realize that you were speaking only of what it means within the denomination of the Church of Christ. Since I try to stay away from denominational issues, I would have never commented had I known. I thought you you were discussing water baptism as it relates to salvation in Christ's church. I will try to be more careful in the future.

Joe

nebula · March 26, 2010

When I read that you were discussing water baptism as it relates to salvation, I didn't realize that you were speaking only of what it means within the denomination of the Church of Christ.

As it turns out, this thread is a carry-over from another thread (you can see it being referenced in the OP - that is, opening post).

eis · March 26, 2010

Well, we haven't even brought John 3:5 into the discussion, but I suspect that many here feel that the water Jesus spoke of is amniotic fluid.
Huh?

That is the argument proposed by some, the water in the womb.

What do yo think the passage means?

Interestingly there are so many who will quote OT principles and understand that the unclean were not allowed into the temple or camp. Understanding that when one was unclean they washed the wash of purification ending their period of uncleanness. In Paul's account of his own conversion he tells how Ananias told him to be baptized washing away his sins and speaks of the washing of regeneration in Titus 3:6. In all, those who reject that grace is received at baptism feel that they have no sin, but their sins are still about them just as a menstrual or seminal impurity spoken of in the OT and they wish to carry those with them into the heavenly realm, not directly but indirectly by refusing to be baptized for the correct reason.

Odd that you use the analogy of on-going monthly cycles to compare with the one-time baptism.

How is that supposed to make sense?

In the sense of the passage you posted in Eph5:23 that the one entering into the presence of God cannot be "covered with sin" or be unclean. While it was physical in the sence of the OT it is spiritual in the NT. Ananias' message then makes sense in this application. Apparently one cannot be in the church unless they have been washed and are spotless.

It was so important to be baptized for the right reason that those who had received the baptism of repentance, which is actually what shiloh & Gator (and others) received, that they were taught better and received the baptism of Christ.

Those who believe they are saved at the point of faith basically receive the baptism of repentance. They show an outward sign of an inward grace (their words), but it is more like the baptism of John and need to truly accept the baptism of Christ, to wit John 3:5.
The Scripture is quite clear that the immersion in water is representing our dying and resurrecting with the Lord.

Eph. 6
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death ? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

By the way - what do you make of Eph. 5:25-27?

5 ... just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing ; but that she would be holy and blameless.

See above.

eis · March 26, 2010

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

NASB

So tell me passages other than:

Romans 6:3-4

3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

NASB

Galatians 3:27

27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ

NASB

where we come into Christ.

nebula · March 26, 2010

That is the argument proposed by some, the water in the womb.

Jesus made it clear he was not talking about a natural birth. I don't see why someone would then argue this is what Jesus meant after Jesus told Nicodemus this was not what he meant.

What do yo think the passage means?

The question is:

Did Jesus mean H2O when He said "water?

Or did He mean something symbolic?

Odd that you use the analogy of on-going monthly cycles to compare with the one-time baptism.

How is that supposed to make sense?
In the sense of the passage you posted in Eph5:23 that the one entering into the presence of God cannot be "covered with sin" or be unclean. While it was physical in the sence of the OT it is spiritual in the NT. Ananias' message then makes sense in this application. Apparently one cannot be in the church unless they have been washed and are spotless.

So, you believe one is washed by a dip in H2O rather than in "the blood of the Lamb"?

By the way - what do you make of Eph. 5:25-27?

5 ... just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing ; but that she would be holy and blameless.
See above.

I think you missed what I was pointing to:

"having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,"

nebula · March 26, 2010

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
NASB

So tell me passages other than:

Romans 6:3-4
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
NASB

Galatians 3:27
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
NASB

where we come into Christ.

Romans 10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved .

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith , Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed .

nebula · March 26, 2010

We know that the Lord baptized, well, not He but his disciples - a different baptism than that of John ( John 4:1-2) & See above.

This is interesting:

Mark 1:8 - [John]: I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Matt. 1:11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear : he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Why did John not say Jesus would likewise baptize with water?