Who is my "brother" in Christ?

[eis]

Strawman. Nothing I said precludes repentance. Repentance simply means to change your mind. Repentance is borne out in putting off sinful works.

Strawman! Your favorite retort! I love it!

So, salvation includes repentance! Not just believing and confessing!

Repentance does not save you. It is a response to the gospel. There is no grocery list of things you do to be saved. When a person changes their mind from rejecting Jesus to accepting Jesus, they have repented.

Can you be saved and not repent?

[nebula]

nebula, are they saved if they don't repent? I don't remember you answering this. Yes or No will suffice.

The reason I am reluctant to answer is because who are you or I to determine what repentance is? Is it the outward show, or what occurs in one's heart? Sure you can argue that the outward show is evidence that the inward change took place, but how do you know the outward show was real?

But like I said, I've heard testimonies of people who were not able to repent until after they asked Jesus into their lives.

So would you say they weren't saved before they were able to cast aside their sin?

[eis]

nebula, are they saved if they don't repent? I don't remember you answering this. Yes or No will suffice.

The reason I am reluctant to answer is because who are you or I to determine what repentance is? Is it the outward show, or what occurs in one's heart? Sure you can argue that the outward show is evidence that the inward change took place, but how do you know the outward show was real?

But like I said, I've heard testimonies of people who were not able to repent until after they asked Jesus into their lives.

So would you say they weren't saved before they were able to cast aside their sin?

I don't think you are saved unless you repent. What say you?

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

You are doing them because you think you have to do them to get heaven.

If you were told to be baptized to be saved, wouldn't you do it because it was commanded by God? If God told you to build an ark to be saved wouldn't you want to do it? I'm following God's commandments because I'm told that if I want everlasting life, this is what I must do.

Well that is what your denomination tells you. The Bible teaches that we are obedient because we are saved. The Bible does not say we are to work to earn salvation.

QUOTE

God does not share His glory. For you to claim that your works get you into heaven, you are diminishing the work of Christ on the cross and ascribing your own effort to save you. Salvation is not a partnership between you and God. Your works are worthless and ineffectual. You either trust in Christ alone, or you will go to hell.

Would someone who accepts Jesus yet lays around the house all day get into heaven? Why or why not?

If they did, they were probably never saved. Again, salvation is an inward transformation, and that will borne out in our actions. A lot of people have religion, but have never found Christ.

QUOTE

I didn't say faith only is needed. I said Jesus Christ only is needed. He is the object of our faith. He alone is the Savior.

So which is it? Faith only, grace only, Christ only?

All of the above. God's grace is received by faith along in Christ alone.

QUOTE

Because it was a commandment from God. His willingness and earnest desire to be baptised was the product of his salvation.

It was a commandment from God! We keep going around in circles on this but it does not indicate anywhere in the scripture the Eunuch was already saved at that point.

The problem is that you are looking at the Bible through the warped lense of the Church of Christ "theology. I know enough about what the Bible says about salvation that I can understand perfectly when the Eunich was saved. He was saved the moment He believed the gospel presented to Him by Phillip.

QUOTE

Not when it was in his power to be obedient. Had there been no access to water, he would have still have been saved anyway. He would have just been baptized at a later time, but that would not have effected his salvation.

It was commanded but not needed for salvation?

You operate from the misguided and unfounded assumption that just because it is a commandment frmo God it is necessary for salvation.

So if God told you to be baptized and you said to Him, well, I'll wait til a more convenient time cause I'm already saved... what do you think would happen?

See, you twisted my response. I said that if the Eunich did not have access to water, he could have been baptized at a later date. That is different than someone flippantly ignoring a commandment of God for the sake of convenience. Evidently reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

There are a variety every day scenarios that could be posited where a person could be saved, be willing to be baptized but lack the opportunity.

QUOTE

I did not say that. I said not every reference to baptism refers to being immersed in water. Jesus immersed in water to identify with us.

Then we go right back around with the meaning of batism etc.

Only because you are not willing to be honest about what it means.

QUOTE

The Holy Spirit immerses or places us into Christ at the moment of salvation. Water immersion is a picture of that spiritual immersion/identification.

I should have been more clear, that's my fault. Could you point to me in the Bible where one verse indicates baptism with water and another indicates baptism of the Holy Spirit? Like where those 3,000 souls were added to the church were they told to be baptized with the Holy Spirit or were they told to actually be baptized in the water?

They were baptized by the Holy Spirit AND they were immersed in water. I don't see the problem

[nebula]

nebula, are they saved if they don't repent? I don't remember you answering this. Yes or No will suffice.

The reason I am reluctant to answer is because who are you or I to determine what repentance is? Is it the outward show, or what occurs in one's heart? Sure you can argue that the outward show is evidence that the inward change took place, but how do you know the outward show was real?

But like I said, I've heard testimonies of people who were not able to repent until after they asked Jesus into their lives.

So would you say they weren't saved before they were able to cast aside their sin?

I don't think you are saved unless you repent. What say you?

But what if one is not aware of all their sins and does not repent of them right away?

Are you saying that one has to perfect themselves before they can be saved?

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

Yes, that would be reasonable, IF it worked that way. But no one goes to hell for those things. Man is born separated from God. He is born spiritually dead and even if a person were to live without committing a single sin, he would still go to hell. We go to hell not because of we do, but because of what we are. We forgiveness for what we have done, but we need deliverance from what we are. Without Christ we stand before God under the law, by default. "under the law" is not referring to the law of Moses. It refers to the law's sentence of death that hangs over the head of all humanity. Without Jesus, we stand before under a curse or sentence of death and the only way to satisfy God's justice is for the spiritual demand of death to be paid. Jesus paid sin debt on the cross. He paid what we owed.

No one goes to hell for: 1 Cor. 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. So if man is born separated from God then that means when infants die they go to hell because they are unclean. See the holes in your arguments?

There are no holes at all. Plenty of holes in your incompetent exegesis, though.

1Cor. 6:9 refers to people who live in immorality as a matter of principle. They are habitual sinners who live in and enjoy sin and for them, sin is a virtue. They are not going to hell for what they do. Those who commit those sins are only doing what comes natural to them, being separated from God. Their sins of immorality are symptoms of a greater spiritual problem. They are spiritually dead and their rampant immorality is the fruit of that spiritual condition. They are going to hell because they are separated from God.

As for the babies, we all know that little children are covered by God's grace until they are of age that they are able to understand and consciously choose to accept or reject the gospel.

QUOTE

Because no one said all you have to have is faith. That is the problem. You have all these "cookie-cutter" responses ready for what you THINK I am saying. I have never said that all a person needs is faith. What I am saying is that you are not going to receive salvation outside of or apart from faith in Christ alone. Our faith is in Christ alone. Jesus + 0 = Salvation.

And faith alone does not save. Time and time again you have been shown it does not work that way, instead you've continued to say "That's not how that works and that's that" Without using much scripture to back up the claims.

I did not say faith alone saves. I said Christ alone saves. Jesus is the object of our faith and he is our Savior. You have made baptism the object of your faith and in doing so your border on idolatry.

QUOTE

Depends on whether or not salvation depends on you or Jesus. Are you the savior or is Jesus??? If a man is drowning in a river, he is unable to save himself. He is totally dependent on someone else to save him. If he could do enough to secure himself, then he would not have been drowning in the first place. If you can do enough good works to save and change yourself, then you would not be a sinner and would not need Jesus.

You can depend on yourself and hope that you have done enough good to offset your sin, or you can put your faith in the sufficiency of Christ to save you. Security depends on who or what is saving you.

I'm not saying we don't need Jesus.

When you demand that works are necessary for salvation, then yes you are essentially setting yourself up as your own savior, thus you don't need Jesus. You just need to make sure that you have done enough good deeds to get you to heaven. You have really done nothing but trample the blood of Christ under foot.

But we are commanded to be obedient which means we are to do as asked. If Jesus takes over then that goes against God's love for us... we become puppets and therefore have no free will.

No, it is simply Jesus being seen through you. But in another sense, you WANT Jesus to take over because frankly you are not good enough to live the Christian live under your own strength.

[Guest shiloh357]

Strawman. Nothing I said precludes repentance. Repentance simply means to change your mind. Repentance is borne out in putting off sinful works.

Strawman! Your favorite retort! I love it!

So, salvation includes repentance! Not just believing and confessing!

Repentance does not save you. It is a response to the gospel. There is no grocery list of things you do to be saved. When a person changes their mind from rejecting Jesus to accepting Jesus, they have repented.

Can you be saved and not repent?

Again, repentance simply means to "change your mind." When you change your mind to accept Christ, you have repented. So essentially repentance is to say yes to the gospel.

Secondly, I would add that God meets people where they are. I know of people who did not know how to pray who, on their own simply spoke to God to the best of their ability and knowledge. I know of a preacher whose father was a drunk, and his father finally accepted Christ by himself on a back road next to his pick-up truck. He didn't know how to pray, but told the Lord that He wanted to be Christian and that wanted salvation. I believe God honored that request that moment. His son followed up on that, but if that man had died 5 minutes after that moment on teh back road, he would have gone to heaven.

[eis]

nebula, are they saved if they don't repent? I don't remember you answering this. Yes or No will suffice.

The reason I am reluctant to answer is because who are you or I to determine what repentance is? Is it the outward show, or what occurs in one's heart? Sure you can argue that the outward show is evidence that the inward change took place, but how do you know the outward show was real?

But like I said, I've heard testimonies of people who were not able to repent until after they asked Jesus into their lives.

So would you say they weren't saved before they were able to cast aside their sin?

I don't think you are saved unless you repent. What say you?

But what if one is not aware of all their sins and does not repent of them right away?

Are you saying that one has to perfect themselves before they can be saved?

Repent of sin or from it. No perfection implied.I understand repenta to be a recognition that sin is in my life and that I am going co turn from sin and pursue a sinless lifestyle. Perfection on our part is not required.

[Scare Bear]

Can you provide Scripture that supports the idea that not all men are born into sin?

Also, if a child steals a cookie out of the cookie jar, using the example that he has never been told by his parents that it is wrong, is it still a sin because it breaks one of God's commandments?

I'm just trying to understand your reasoning behind believing that we are not all born into sin and that children are not sinful.

Thanks if you can answer my questions!

No problem.

Psalms 58: 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

This is over exaggeration like "I've been married all my life!" But we know that babies can't speak straight from the womb.

Psalms 106: 37 They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to demons, 38 And shed innocent blood, The blood of their sons and daughters, Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood.

Notice "innocent blood?"

Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them to Him and said,

[eis]

Strawman. Nothing I said precludes repentance. Repentance simply means to change your mind. Repentance is borne out in putting off sinful works.

Strawman! Your favorite retort! I love it!

So, salvation includes repentance! Not just believing and confessing!

Repentance does not save you. It is a response to the gospel. There is no grocery list of things you do to be saved. When a person changes their mind from rejecting Jesus to accepting Jesus, they have repented.

Can you be saved and not repent?

Again, repentance simply means to "change your mind." When you change your mind to accept Christ, you have repented. So essentially repentance is to say yes to the gospel.

Secondly, I would add that God meets people where they are. I know of people who did not know how to pray who, on their own simply spoke to God to the best of their ability and knowledge. I know of a preacher whose father was a drunk, and his father finally accepted Christ by himself on a back road next to his pick-up truck. He didn't know how to pray, but told the Lord that He wanted to be Christian and that wanted salvation. I believe God honored that request that moment. His son followed up on that, but if that man had died 5 minutes after that moment on teh back road, he would have gone to heaven.

your experiences of people you know prove nothing.

Can you be saved and not repent? yea or nay?