Where was Joseph?

[ServingHim]

But i do have a question for ServingHim,

Why do you feel the need to defend that Mary had no other children?

I don't need to defend it Dave...but I will say that this whole discussion all boils down to authority...Christ, as everyone says, has the FINAL authority, and I completely agree, YET all 'denominations' disagree on many many things about Christ Jesus. And the Church IS Christ, His Body, so I guess it all boils down to WHICH church one recognizes as the Church in which Jesus gave the 'keys' to and is 'leading into all truth'. For Truth cannot contradict itself because Truth is the Person, Jesus Christ. And I have come to know that the Catholic Church IS the church that has endured for 2000 years, with apostolic succession all the way down from Peter to John Paul II...and that is what I believe...and so when everyone else has an opinion of whether Mary had other children or not really doesn't matter...the Truth comes from the Church...and I believe that is the Catholic Church. Also, I do love a good challenge to try and discover this from scripture alone...I've so enjoyed conversing about it, yet in the end, it doesn't need to 'separate' us and cause division...for love conquers all. I don't need to 'be right'...but I DO trust the Church in which Christ, I firmly believe, is leading into Truth...not error. And since the Church teaches that Mary is ever-virgin, I believe her, for who am I to know...I'm just a small fish in a huge ocean! :il:

[ServingHim]

How can Mary be the mother of God when God already existed?

You are right...God exists for all time, with no beginning and no end!

Mary was the mother of Jesus and gave him his human side.

Yes, Mary did give birth to Christ Jesus, YET wasn't the WHOLE CHRIST fully HUMAN AND fully DIVINE? One God, Three Persons... Father, Son, Holy Spirit...inseparable!

And the Word was made Flesh.

And the Word was IN THE BEGINNING!~

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever. Heb 13:8

You can't separate Jesus From God! One God, Three Persons!

I'm sorry but Mary was JUST a woman, a Godly one yes, but a woman none the less.

Mary is the chosen Ark of the New Covenant...not just 'merely' a woman...but a chosen instrument by God.

It amazes me as to why there is always so much controversy about Mary?

1. People will admit that she is the mother of Jesus Christ in His humanity, but could not be the mother of GOD.

2. They will say she could not have been immaculately conceived.

3. They will say she was not perpetually virgin and had other children.

4. They will say she could not have been assumed into Heaven body and soul.

Let's see ...

I. Is Mary the Mother of GOD?

A. The definition of 'PERSON' is, 'The center of attribution in a rational nature'. For a person the question is 'WHO'. Who is that person?

1. Each person has a body. Messages come to the body through the five senses.

2. Each person has a soul, the principal of life.

3. Each person has a spirit. It has the intellect and free will.

B. The definition of 'NATURE' is, 'That which makes a thing be what it is'. A dog has a dog nature, a fish has a fish nature. A dog cannot 'meow' because it doesn't have a cat nature. Everything has its own nature. A person possesses a nature. Nature does not possess a person. I cannot move your arm because my person does not possess your nature. For a nature the question is 'WHAT'. What kind of nature, human, fish, cat, dog?

C. Jesus Christ was (is) a person, as you are a person, and I am a person.

D. Jesus Christ has two natures, a divine nature and a human nature. He is unique in being the only person ever born with two distinct natures.

E. He can do everything that GOD can do, and at the same time do everything that a man can do except sin.

F. As GOD, He knew everything. As man, He had to learn everything, as you and I have to do. Lk 2:52

G. His foster father, St Joseph, taught the creator of the universe how to be a carpenter. Mk 6:3

H. It is a mystery as to how these two natures co-existed in His one person. It is known as the 'Hypostatic Union'.

I. Jesus Christ is but one person, with two natures.

J. He is not two persons, each with His own nature.

K. A son receives his nature from his father, male, human etc.

L. Jesus Christ received His nature from His father, a divine nature.

M. Since Jesus Christ is His Fathers Son, He is a divine person. He cannot be a human person also, as that would make Him two persons, each with a nature.

N. A woman gives birth to a 'PERSON' and that person possesses a nature, male, female etc. She does not give birth to a nature.

O. Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, a 'DIVINE PERSON'.

P. Since Mary gave birth to a divine person, that makes her the Mother of GOD.

II. Was Mary immaculately conceived?

A. This means she had no stain of sin at her conception, no 'Original Sin'.

B. GOD and sin are mutually excludable. God cannot co-exist with sin. Rev 21:27

C. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were thrown out of Eden and the gates of Heaven were closed (Gen 3:24). There was no salvation of mankind until Jesus Christ died on the cross, and the gates were reopened.

D. When GOD gave the plans of the Ark of the Covenant', to the people, he was very meticulous as to just how the 'container' of His 'WORD', the stone tablets of the 'Ten Commandments', was to be constructed. It had to be perfect and without blemish. Ex 25:8-40

E. The 'New Ark of the Covenant', the vessel that was to 'contain' the 'WORD', Jesus Christ Incarnate, had to be 'made' without blemish also.

F. The 'New Ark of the Covenant' is Mary. She was to give birth to the 'WORD', Jesus Christ. Jn 1:1,14

G. Read Luke 1:28, 'And when the Angel had come to her, he said, "Hail full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women'." Luke 1:30, 'Do not be afraid, Mary, for thou hast found Grace with GOD'. 'Full of Grace', and 'Grace with GOD', could only mean Mary was without sin. John the Baptist had not yet appeared to start the Sacrament of Baptism. If GOD created the entire universe out of nothing, don't you think the GOD who imposed Adam's Sin on mankind could make one little Jewish girl without original sin?

H. She had to be 'Immaculately Conceived' to satisfy the fact that GOD cannot coexist with sin.

III. Was Mary always a virgin? Did she have other children? (ok, let's not do this again ... )

A. Mt 13:55-56 and MK 6:3 say, "Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, the 'brother' of James, and Joseph, and of Jude and Simon? And are not His 'sisters' here with us?"

B. At first it looks like Jesus had brothers and sisters. These are the main two verses that some say 'prove' He did. Lets look at the definitions.

C. From four different dictionaries, the word 'brother' means, sons of the same parents, OR, friend, ally, kinsman, fellow man, member of the same clan, fellow member of a Church etc. Which definition fits the verses?

D. Compare Mt 10:2-4, Mk 15:40, Jn 19:25, and Acts 1:13 and you will find that James, Joseph, and Jude were sons of Cleophas (Alphaeus) and 'the other Mary', not Mary the Mother of GOD. Simon was the 'Canaanite' of Mk 3:18, and the 'Zealot'.

E. NONE of the four 'brothers' were sons of Mary, the Mother of GOD. They were 'fellow men'. This makes the word 'brother' a non-argument. Mt 12:50

IV. Was Mary Assumed into Heaven, body and soul?

A. Nay sayers point to 1Cor 15:50, "...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of GOD", therefore she could not possibly have been assumed body and soul. The verse means, 'the gulf between creatures and GOD is too wide to be bridged unless GOD Himself transforms us'.

B. Jesus Christ ascended into Heaven body and soul. Jn 20:17

C. The Bible points out that no less than two persons from the Old Testament were assumed into "heaven" bodily.

Gen 5:24, "And Enoch walked with GOD; and he was not; for GOD took him."

Heb 11:5, "...Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found because GOD had translated him." 2Kings 2:11, "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into Heaven."

It is to be noted that the Bible does not mentioned that either died first. Also it is to be assumed that they were taken up to the "heavens", and not the heaven for which we are strive. Old Testament "heaven" had several meanings including the "heavens", everything above the surface of the earth. See 2Cor 12:2 where St. Paul mentions the third heaven, and St. Peter mentions "heavens" in 2Pet 3:5. See also John 3:13 where Jesus said that no man ascended to heaven except He that came down from heaven...

D. As for Mary, read Psa 16:10, "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine 'Holy One' to see corruption." This verse could apply to Mary as well as to the 'Messiah'. See also, 1Cor 15:52.

E. Mary certainly is a 'Holy One', for in Lk 1:28, an angel said to her, "Hail full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women." In Lk 1:30, the angel said, "...thou hast found grace with GOD" In Lk 1:42 Elizabeth said, "...Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb." In Lk 1:48 Mary herself says, "...henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

I question those who claim to be Bible followers and yet, in fact, have never called her 'blessed' and have no intention of ever doing so.

The verse clearly says:

"Henceforth", which means from the time she said it until the end of time.

"All generations", I would presume includes all of those who refuse to call her blessed today.

"Shall ('will', in some Bibles)", denotes a command and not a suggestion.

"Call me blessed". Why is this simple verse ignored by millions who claim to be Bible believers?

F. Since Mary, as the Mother of GOD, and Queen of Saints, is higher than Enoch or Elijah, why would anyone believe she was not taken up as they were, except to a higher place? Remember, the gates of heaven were opened when GOD died on the cross.

G. The early Churches scrambled for 'relics' of the early Saints as they died. There is no record of any Church obtaining 'relics' of the Blessed Virgin. Her 'relics' would be the most prized of all. There are no first class 'relics' of an assumed person, because there is no body of that person left on earth from which to obtain them.

H. Just because the Bible, at first glance, says little about the Assumption of Mary, does not indicate that she was not assumed. To turn that statement around, Holy Scripture does not say that she was not asssumed either.

I. For GOD's ways are not our ways, Isa 55:8, so why do people try to bring Him down to our human level?

He can do whatever He wants without asking us first. Since He made everything out of nothing, why then could He not Assume the mother of Jesus Christ into heaven body and soul?

Just food for thought...I think ALL generations should call her 'blessed' especially since the Word of God says so ...

[dwinkjr]

Serving,

I agree there is no need to seperate from one another because of minor theological differences and donot mean to come across rude if that is how it sounded.

I also will accept that Mary not having children is possible, as is her ascending to heaven in the flesh, as is her being born without original sin. ALL are possible, as we all know with GOD ANYTHING is possible. What I don't understand is the need to claim it as factual without any proof to back it up. It is up to you what you choose to believe, as it is for me. But to state something as fact that has no Scriptural bases to it is beyond my understanding. Can you at least admit, it COULD be the other way?

God Bless,

Dave

[ServingHim]

Serving,

I agree there is no need to seperate from one another because of minor theological differences and donot mean to come across rude if that is how it sounded.

I also will accept that Mary not having children is possible, as is her ascending to heaven in the flesh, as is her being born without original sin. ALL are possible, as we all know with GOD ANYTHING is possible.

:il:

What I don't understand is the need to claim it as factual without any proof to back it up. It is up to you what you choose to believe, as it is for me.

I only know it to be Truth based solely on what the Church teaches...and I have a rather good time trying to find it in scripture myself...but 'facts' or 'no facts'...I believe this entire thread has been a wonderful experience to learn from one another.

But to state something as fact that has no Scriptural bases to it is beyond my understanding. Can you at least admit, it COULD be the other way?

I agree...I cannot back up completely from SCRIPTURE ALONE whether Mary did or did not have other children, just as those who claim she had many children, etc.etc.etc. also cannot back it up as 'fact'. You have to remember, 'Tradition' comes into play into what I accept ... I'm sure the Apostles KNEW exactly whether or not Mary had children, et al, and that is what has been handed down through the generations to us now so that we can know for fact, though not by 'scripture alone'...for nowhere in Scripture does Scripture itself teach 'scripture alone'.

I do NOT admit that it could be any other way because I do not look to what I think Scripture says, but what the Church teaches ... for Christ alone is Truth, and He is leading His Church into ALL Truth, including these details. I know you don't accept that, and that's okay. I didn't either up until about 7 years ago. But I will say that it's been a wonderful challenge to use SCRIPTURE ALONE to try and prove this ... and I'd say that the evidence is NOT overwhelming that she had other children, etc.

Thank you, Dave, for your always kind and charitable posts. You're a gentleman and a scholar! Blessings and peace... :il:

[dwinkjr]

I only know it to be Truth based solely on what the Church teaches...and I have a rather good time trying to find it in scripture myself...but 'facts' or 'no facts'...I believe this entire thread has been a wonderful experience to learn from one another. 

Yes as you I have enjoyed this discussion greatly

And honestly I understand your Church Tradition, and will not even argue that there can be some valid traditions that were preserved over time. I personally just have a hard time putting my faith in men. Unlike the Gospels which have been shown to have been written as early as 60ad, most of the traditions were never written down until Hundreds of years later. So now you are placing your faith in the Church(sinful human beings) to preserve these traditions Orally for hundreds of years before they were ever written down.

I do NOT admit that it could be any other way because I do not look to what I think Scripture says, but what the Church teaches ... for Christ alone is Truth, and He is leading His Church into ALL Truth, including these details.

While I applaud you for sticking to your guns, the fact still remains your church is not infallable, and is still lead by men. Christ is the head of the One Church, which is the church of ALL christians, NOT any one denomination. I believe there are errors in the doctrines of every denomination currently in existence. And i can live without that For the truth is in what we all agree on. And that my Friend is what really matters. We all believe in teh Deity of Christ, his death, resurrection, and ascension to heave. We all believe He was God in the flesh come as man to provide redemption for ALL of his children. It is in these great truths that we are united.

Thank you, Dave, for your always kind and charitable posts.  You're a gentleman and a scholar!  Blessings and peace...  :il:

Now thats a first and I will have to disagree with you there as well All too often i let the flesh have control of this keyboard. But thank God the Holy Spirit is with me to give me the correction I so often need. And that my Brothers adn Sisters here on worthy keep me in line as well.

God Bless,

Dave

[ServingHim]

Yes as you I have enjoyed this discussion greatly

:il:

And honestly I understand your Church Tradition, and will not even argue that there can be some valid traditions that were preserved over time. I personally just have a hard time putting my faith in men.

so why do you put faith in Peter, Paul, Timothy, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, et al?

We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 1 John 4:6

"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." Luke 10:16

Unlike the Gospels which have been shown to have been written as early as 60ad, most of the traditions were never written down until Hundreds of years later. So now you are placing your faith in the Church(sinful human beings) to preserve these traditions Orally for hundreds of years before they were ever written down.

No, I trust that Christ is leading HIS BODY, the Church, into ALL Truth, through men, such as Peter, Paul, Timothy, Matth'ias (the one who REPLACED Judas' office - Acts 1:20).

12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. John 16:12-13

... and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Matt 18:17 ... dave, HOW do you interpret THIS verse?

I do NOT admit that it could be any other way because I do not look to what I think Scripture says, but what the Church teaches ... for Christ alone is Truth, and He is leading His Church into ALL Truth, including these details.

While I applaud you for sticking to your guns, the fact still remains your church is not infallable, and is still lead by men.

so point to me the church in which IS infallible, because that is where I want to be...for I want to know ALL Truth; not just some of what I think it is. Jesus PROMISED to guide His Church into all Truth and promised that the gates of death would NEVER prevail (ISN'T ERROR = to DEATH)... let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:20

18 For, uttering loud boasts of folly, they entice with licentious passions of the flesh men who have barely escaped from those who live in error. 2 Peter 2:18

Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. James 4:17

It's amazing that even amongst 'denominations' that are 'split' from one another that they disagree on so much, such as baptism. Truly amazing. I've 'debated' with a fellow on another board for 59 pages regarding BAPTISM! He has changed his stance for at least 7 times. Truly, he doesn't know what he believes, yet fights ME on what I believe and what he Church has firmly taught (with historical documents to back it up). And he tells ME that I'm listening to the 'evil one' . It just amazes me what people will do to try an bring down the Catholic Church, but in the end. She will stand firm forever, because Christ promised that His Body, His Spouse, The Church, will last forever! Jesus promised that His Church would last every day in every century until the end of time (Matthew 28:20, John 14:16-17, Ephesians 3:21), and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). :il: I believe Him!

Christ is the head of the One Church, which is the church of ALL christians, NOT any one denomination.

But all denominations DISAGREE on so many things..how can Christ lead SO MANY to SO MANY differing things...this one says this; that one says that. No one agrees.

Did you know that there are approximately 36,400* (*World Christian Encyclopedia, 2003, a Protestant publication) non-Catholic Christian sects in the world today with more new ones appearing every week. All use the same Bible, yet each interpret it differently, and consequently they end up teaching "another Gospel" (Galatians 1:8-9). The sad part is that they all try to justify their existence, and thus their actions of further dividing the Body of Christ by claiming, "The Holy Spirit Told Me".

Common sense and reasoning by intelligent people quickly show that this mentality is not in line with the teaching of Jesus Christ, as He called for "One Fold with One Shepherd" (John 10:16). These divisions of the Body of Christ are in opposition to the teaching of Holy Scripture, so how could it ever be possible that the Holy Spirit is prompting those who cause them?

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, THAT YOU ALL SAY THE SAME THING; AND THAT THERE BE NO DISSENSIONS AMONG YOU, BUT THAT YOU MAY BE PERFECTLY UNITED IN ONE MIND AND IN ONE JUDGMENT." 1Corinthians 1:10. See also 1Corinthians 11:17-22

"Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand." Matthew 12:25

"Anyone who advances and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ, HAS NOT GOD; he who abides in the doctrine, he has both the Father and the Son." 2John 1:9

The Bible is very explicit that those who cause these divisions are not from GOD, so therefore, the Holy Spirit could not possibly be prompting them. Apparently, doctrine is quite important, for the Bible says so. Are we not to believe this?

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of GOD; because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. By this is the spirit of GOD known: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh , is of GOD. AND EVERY SPIRIT THAT SEVERS JESUS, IS NOT OF GOD, BUT IS OF ANTICHRIST, of whom you have heard that He is coming, and now is already in the world." 1John 4:1-3

Satan will give you 99 truths if he can get you to swallow one lie.

"And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, BECAUSE IT NEITHER SEES HIM NOR KNOWS HIM. BUT YOU SHALL KNOW HIM, BECAUSE HE WILL DWELL WITH YOU AND BE IN YOU." John 14:16-17

"Many things yet I have to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when HE, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, has come, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THE TRUTH. For He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He will hear He will speak, and THE THINGS THAT ARE TO COME HE WILL DECLARE TO YOU."

John 16:12-13

What message do these verses convey?

*To whom did Jesus speak in these verses?

This dialogue was during the Last Supper and the only ones' present with Him were the Apostles. He told them that the Holy Spirit will dwell within the Church which He will found. He was not speaking to the masses here.

*That ALL is NOT in the Bible since there will be future declarations.

*That since truth is ONE, and is the person of Jesus Christ (John 14:6), that the Spirit certainly cannot declare a differing truth to each of 36,400 divisions of His Body.

So how do we answer each of those 36,400 divisions when they make the claim that "The Holy Spirit told them"?

For those who claim that "The Holy Spirit told them", I must ask, "Are there 36,400 Holy Spirits telling each division a different truth, or is there only one Spirit which speaks truth to the only Church which Jesus Christ founded and speaks lies to the rest?" Which option would answer the question? It is obvious that neither does, for Holy Scripture gives us the answer.

"We are of GOD. He who knows GOD listens to us; he who is not of GOD does not listen to us. BY THIS WE KNOW THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND THE SPIRIT OF ERROR." 1John 4:6

There are three spirits, anyone one of which could be the one who is prompting a person.

1. There is first the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, and His prompting is from GOD.

2. Then there is the human spirit which manufactures the prompts through the imagination and other human traits.

3. Finally, there is the evil spirit and its prompting is straight from Satan.

The Spirit of truth is in the Church of truth, the Church which Jesus Christ founded.

How do we determine which Spirit is prompting each of us? Holy Scripture gives us the answer. "And we are witnesses to these things, and SO IS THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN TO ALL WHO OBEY HIM." Acts 5:32 All who obey Him are prompted by the Holy Spirit. The disobedient are prompted by one of the other spirits.

"Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you." Hebrews 13:17 This is a command from GOD.

Was Martin Luther and the other reformers obedient to their superiors?

Did they obey GOD's command in this verse? No? Then which of the other two spirits was guiding them?

We obey GOD by keeping His Commandments and His Word whether by word or by letter. In the first Commandment, GOD tells us that He must be first in our lives.

What is most important in our lives is the god of our lives. Do we put GOD first, or do we put money, or power, or worldly things, or the flesh first? If GOD is first in your lives, it is a good sign that the Holy Spirit is prompting you.

I believe there are errors in the doctrines of every denomination currently in existence. And I can live without that For the truth is in what we all agree on. And that my Friend is what really matters. We all believe in the Deity of Christ, his death, resurrection, and ascension to heave. We all believe He was God in the flesh come as man to provide redemption for ALL of his children. It is in these great truths that we are united.

Compare the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel, with the advent of Protestantism. Both groups, being threats to GOD's plan of salvation, were almost immediately divided into small pieces and rendered impotent, Babel by a plethora of languages, and Protestantism by a plethora of sects; 36.000+ at this point, I believe...perhaps even more since that figure was quoted.

Thank you, Dave, for your always kind and charitable posts.

[ServingHim]

Saul, Saul, why doest thou persecute me? Acts 9:4

What is Jesus saying here?

Saul in his zeal had been mercilessly persecuting the newly founded religion called Christians. He is first mentioned in Acts 7:58-59 where he gave his approval for the stoning to death of the first Christian martyr, Saint Stephen.

Acts 8:1-3, "Now there broke out on that day a great persecution against the CHURCH in Jerusalem, and all except the Apostles were scattered abroad throughout the land of Judea and Samaria. And devout men took care of Stephen's burial and made great lamentation over him. But Saul was harassing the CHURCH; entering house after house, and dragging out men and women, he committed them to prison."

Acts 9:1-5, "But Saul, still breathing threats of slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, that if he found any men or women belonging to this Way (a word used for Christianity), he might bring them in bonds to Jerusalem. And as he went on his journey, it came to pass that he drew near to Damascus, when suddenly a light from heaven shone round about him; and falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me?" And he said, "Who art thou Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom thou art persecuting.""

1. Who is Saul persecuting in Acts 8:1-3?

It is the CHURCH as mentioned twice in those three verses.

2. Then why does Jesus Christ say, "Why dost thou persecute me?" Instead of 'Why dost thou persecute My Church'?

It is because we are the body and He is the head of His Church. Whatever happens to the body is registered in the head. Isn't that true?

3. Therefore, whenever someone persecutes the Catholic Church, the body, they are persecuting the Head also, Jesus Christ Himself.

"For I am the least of the Apostles, and am not worthy to be called an Apostle because I persecuted the CHURCH OF GOD." 1 Cor 15:9

"For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism; how beyond all measure, I persecuted the CHURCH OF GOD, and ravaged it." Gal 1:13.

"As regards zeal, a persecutor of the CHURCH OF GOD." Phil 3:6

"I give thanks to Jesus Christ our Lord, who has strengthened me, because he counted me trustworthy in making me his minister. For I formerly was a blasphemer, a persecutor and a bitter adversary; but I obtained the mercy of GOD because I acted ignorantly, in unbelief." 1Tim 1:12-13

"Do not be a stumbling block to Jews and Greeks and to the CHURCH OF GOD." 1 Cor 10:32

Upon Which Scripture Verse Was The Catholic Church Founded ?

Adam had only one bride, and her name was Eve...Genesis 4:1

Eve was created by GOD from a rib removed from the side of the 'sleeping' Adam... Genesis 2:21-24

Jesus Christ is the last Adam...1Corinthians 15:45

Jesus Christ has only one bride, and she is the Church...Jeremiah 16:9, John 3:28-29, Revelation 18:23, 19:7-8, 21:9

The only Bride of Christ was created while Jesus Christ 'slept' on the cross.

"...but one of the soldiers opened His side with a lance, and immediately there came out blood and water." John 19:34

Catechism of the Catholic Church - 766

The Old Testament prefigures the New Testament in so many ways. Both brides were created through openings in the side, through the rib cage, and next to the hearts of the two Adam's.

Some would say the Church was founded in Matthew 16:18, but therin Jesus Christ said He 'will' build His Church on the 'rock' of Peter...

Others say the Church was founded at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles in Acts 2:1-47. However that was when the Apostles were given the knowledge, and wisdom, and authority, with which to build the Church upon the cornerstone, which is Jesus Christ, Christ leading them ALL THE WAY, til the end of the ages (Matt 28:20). :il:

[dwinkjr]

My only reply to all of this Serving is I will simply agree that not all can be right. But I donot know which one is. And all that believe on Christ and follow his word ARE part of HIS church. How do you know that the protestants were not in the right when they broke from the Catholic Church? Or that the Eastern Orthodox Church was not the right one for leaving hte Catholic Church? What makes you so Positive that yours is the right one?

BTW I like you am a seeker of truth. I donot claim any denomination. I am simply a believer in the Gospel of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I hunger for his knowledge and Thirst for his Love. My Theological views are ever adapting, not because I waffle on my beliefs but because i Find new evidence to show me either I am wrong or I am right and further support that.

God Bless,

Dave

[ServingHim]

God bless you Dave...it's been awesome! May the peace of our Lord be ALWAYS with you! :il:

[Guest Orthodox Christian]

I'm Sorry but i donot know what bible you have, for mine specifically states for ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. The Saints were good faithful Christian MEN.

You see, Dave, Orthodoxy teaches that the Holy Spirit does not come in one measure, but in many. Meaning, in one person there is "less" of the Holy Spirit, and in some there is "more". There is an infinite ruler of "measure" or "quantity" of the Holy Spirit in a person, and it starts from 0 -- that is eternal death (although the Holy Spirit exists in everything, so the value is not an absolute 0, as I understand it, but somewhat 0.001 or something like that ). All people have the Holy Spirit, He gives us our life that our heart can beat and our lungs can breath and our consciousness could be alert. And all good that a person does, he does it by the Holy Spirit that dwells in his soul. But when a person comes to God, He sends more of the Holy Spirit and the person starts to see more things, like distinguish more deep good from evil, start to see his impurity and sins. And when even more of the Holy Spirit comes, the person starts to gain virtues like love his neighbor and enimies, love God and all creation, he starts to humble himself, and become a "good faithful Christian". But then there is even more of the Holy Spirit when a person ackwires the perfect Christ-like love and humility, that is beyond our comprehension, and becomes like Christ. And that is the state that the whole New Testament is talking about, all the "blessed" in the 5 chapter of Mathew are all qualities of the perfect.

Now, they are still men, as you said, and they still might have small sins, because they are not absolutely perfect like the perfect God. That is out of the question. But rather they become more like God in relation to the all of the people and to their own previous condition. That is when God grants them the gifts of the Holy Spirit -- the miracles.

That is why we love saints, we don't worship them, as I said, but honor that they loved God and they have received the gifts. Also, we have many things to learn from them, because they have defeated the sin (some did more, some less, but all defeated the sin more than we, normal people, did). And they can teach us a lot. They are taught by the experience, hard, difficult fight with sin, and they can point us to the right direction in our own struggles with sin. That is one side of why we love saints.

Another reason is that it is impossible to not feel the Holy Spirit in those people. When you meet them (and you probably didn't), your soul can sense the Divine breath in them, and she longs it as she longs God. God dwells in them in a great measure and you simply cannot resist it. One my friend (female) said that she met one monk who had such pure eyes that she was running after him wherever he went, like a tail, and could not tear herself from feeling the sweet breath of God in that person. I'm telling you, you feel it that those people are special, not like everybody else. You probably don't know what I am talking about, but if you are interested, I can tell you more.

So, here also lies the answer (and explanation) of my question wether you are a vessel of the Holy Spirit. I did not mean weather you have any bit of the Holy Spirit, if you are still Christian and believe in Christ, you have God dwelling in your soul. The question is about quantity. You see, I spoke in the Orthodox manner, because we call saints the vessels of the Holy Spirit. A vessel of the Holy Spirit is a person who doesn't sin at all. He is perfect (again, not as perfect as God is, but perfect as a man could be). So, my question is: can you say that you don't sin?

I'm sorry but Mary was JUST a woman, a Godly one yes, but a woman none the less.

Exactly, and that is the reason why we shouldn't worship her above God. But that is not the reason why we shouldn't love her (at least as a sister and a godly person).

So if Mary was not an ordinary woman then Christ was not 100% God 100% Man?

She was human, and Christ was and is half human. The matter is what kind of human she was. Again, being a mother of God is a difficult task, and no ordinary woman can handle it.

A little about Orthodox tradition.

It is different from Catholic. Catholics say that they have the authority to introduce new doctrines. I will not argue with that right now, but just say that Orthodoxy teaches that no man is infallible.

I need say here about the Holy Spirit a little more. When the person wins over the sin (again, I do not mean here absolutely completely), the Holy Spirit comes in a greater "quantity" to that person. That Holy Spirit instructs the person in many things like what is good and bad, what is sin, what is the nature of the soul, where the sin lies and where it starts, how to fight it and how to teach others how to fight it, and many more things. It also gives the person the knowledge of the will of God. In addition, It gives the knowledge of the mysteries of God and shows God and reveales things about Him that other people cannot know. The Holy Spirit comes into the soul, and all of the knowledge comes into the soul and not the mind. So that "information" is not distorted by our limited mind. That makes the person sensible of the Truth. Although it is not all the truth that such person beholds, for it is infinite like God, but a big amount of it that normal people cannot even imagine. So, these people really know the Truth, and they can say weather a person is in error or not, or a doctrine is correct or not. Now, I don't say that a saint is absolutely perfectly perfect and knows all like God does, but pretty much and it is very rare that a saint is mistaking. And we can depend on the saints (Orthodox) because they all talk about the same, and they are in "one mind and one soul". But if one thing stands out in one saint's teaching and does not fit in the whole picture of spiritual teaching including the Scripture, then that thought of the saint is not accepted. See, we check saints referring to the Scripture, and if they contradict it, we refuse their teachings.

So, we do not have the authority of men, but authority of the Holy Spirit. That Holy Spirit dwells in a person in a great measure, sufficient for that person to know the (great part of the) Truth, is proven by miracles that that person performs. If he heals people and walks upon the water -- trust him. If he doesn't -- well, don't.

And for supporting my point with scripture verse, as Protestant tradition requires, I would give this: "Pure in heart will see God". See God in this and the eternal life.