Sin, once repented, always forgiven?

[Orr v'emet]

Okay Deb, I don't know if it's that it's early or what but I am reading what your saying and it is making no sense to me. Can you clarify for me.....I am reading with an open mind btw...

[Kabowd]

Ok, hypothetical situation here....I get saved around age 16 let's say. Grew up in the Church, all I ever knew was Christianity.....I love the Lord....

Then later I start to drift away from church....and then I get involved heavy into drug abuse and sins associated with drug use......if I were to die - living in unrepentant sin, would God still allow me into heaven ?

Yes. Here's why: If you've accepted Christ's sacrifice once, then ALL your sins were covered by His blood (sins past, sins present, sins future). Repentance (while a fruit of a true believer) is not equal to salvation. If it was, this would be considered a "work". We know that in Ephesians 2:8,9 that we cannot work to earn salvation. Also, how is your hypothetical situation any different than this one:

I get saved around age 16...grew up in Church, love the Lord ..but struggle with the issue of lust. On the way home from church one day I see a guy walking down the street and begin to have impure thoughts. Suddenly, I'm in a car accident and killed instantly. Would God allow me into heaven?

You see, no matter how good and obedient we all try to live..there will always be things that trip us up. We can't go one day without sin in our lives. If we have to confess each and every sin each time in order for salvation to be secure, then this is no different than the priests of the old covenant.

God doesn't force His love on us does He ? Is that really love ? Love is a two way street....yes - God WILL keep His end and save you, BUT, if you turn your back on Him, will He FORCE you to love Him ? That's not love is it ? He wants our obedience!

I 100% agree that God wants us to live in obedience. And I agree that He never forces Himself upon us. However, I do not believe love is a two-way street. Scripture says that we were DEAD in sin (before salvation). What can a dead man do? Can a dead man love? Can a dead man do anything? No. We love Him BECAUSE He first loved us. (I John 4:19). Let's also not forget that God's love is unconditional. He doesn't save us, then change His mind because we disobey. He knew in advance, each and every time we would sin. He didn't send His Son to the cross without all the facts. Nothing you or I have ever done has taken Him by surprise. While God commands obedience, I do not believe it is a condition by which we earn or maintain our salvation.

So, if love is a two way street and I CHOSE to turn on God and live a life of sin, is God going to save me whilst in sin ?

Again, I respectfully disagree on the two-way street thing. Another example I would have for this is the covenant God made with Abram (found in Gen. 15). When God made the covenant with Abram, how did Abram participate? What did he have to "do"? Notice that he did NOTHING. God caused him to fall into a deep sleep, and God Himself fulfilled the covenant between the two of them.

is God going to save me whilst in sin ?

Isn't that the essence of Romans 5:8?

"But God demonstrated His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Can I just throw a OSAS blanket statement and say "well, I'm saved so they're forgiven ? Kinda cheapens grace doesn't it ?

Not at all. In fact, I believe the contrary to your statement would be true: if grace is conditional upon how I perform, this would cheapen it. Personally, I think it increases it's value. Where sin abounds, grace increases all the more (Romans 5:20).

Here are a couple of more Scriptures that support my belief:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance th race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the Author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning it's shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:1-2

In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership with the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

Philippians 1:4-6

From these verses I learn a couple of things:

#1 Jesus is the Author and perfecter. What He starts, He finishes. Salvation is initiated by God and He continues to do a work in us from the point of salvation until the day Christ returns.

#2 The Christian journey is likened to a race...yet it is clear that there are hinderances and "sin that easily entangles us". It does not state that we go back to the beginning each time we sin. We would never make it to the finish that way because we constantly sin. Instead it tells us to persevere, and cast off those things that hinder us. We don't go back to the starting point...we are just "freed up" to carry on in the race as Christ "perfects" us.

I asked a question earlier that really wasn't answered:

* If God says He forgives..and even forgets our sin...casts it as far as the East is from the West (Ps. 103:12; Heb.9:17-18), how is it not calling Him a liar to then say He will hold them against us?

And in light of the other two Scriptures I just gave I have a couple more questions:

* If God initiates salvation, and performs it on our behalf....what makes us think we can then take it into our own hands?

* In light of the verse in Philippians 1, does God finish what He starts or not?

* In light of the verses in Hebrews 12, what does "Author" and "Perfecter" mean?

Edited August 10, 2004 by Tess

[dwinkjr]

Perhaps the most threatening thing, for me anyway about not believing in eternal security is that fact that I have been down the road of being away from God. I shutter to think of what could have happened had I died in that time just as Bob was discussing. I've said it before but I think the real question may be are we saying that Christ paying the price for our sins on the cross wasn't enough to cover all our sin? Sure we have to repent, sure we will make mistakes, we are human. But God knows that, when we accept Jesus at the moment of salvation His blood covers me so that when God looks at me He sees His Son. I will never, ever be good enough for heaven. But Jesus paid the price. So if I do not have eternal security does that mean that the blood of Jesus ceases to cover me? I just have a really hard time with that. It's saying that it wasn't sufficient and it was. To me, and I may be very different that most eternal security believers, but I feel a greater need and desire to be like my Savior because I recognize the price He paid and I want nothing more than to do something to repay Him even though I know nothing I do is worthy. I recognize that all I have is from Him and I want to serve Him and obey Him. I don't want to live a sinners life when I have been redeemed. To me this all boils down to semantics. If you are God's child then you will live the way you are supposed to and eternal security will make no difference because you are doing the will of the Father.

Sorry for the rambling....a bit off the topic but still applies I think....

Amen KMB,

I just remind myself that every time I sin, I have helped to crucify my Savior. And as I LOVE him i donot want him to hurt anymore then he has to He has given me Salvation and has paid the cost in full, but for me I wanna make my portion of his pain as little as possible. As i would not wanna inflict pain upon my son, i donot want to inflict pain upon my heavenly father.

God Bless,

Dave

[Kabowd]

I've said it before but I think the real question may be are we saying that Christ paying the price for our sins on the cross wasn't enough to cover all our sin? Sure we have to repent, sure we will make mistakes, we are human. But God knows that, when we accept Jesus at the moment of salvation His blood covers me so that when God looks at me He sees His Son. I will never, ever be good enough for heaven. But Jesus paid the price. So if I do not have eternal security does that mean that the blood of Jesus ceases to cover me? I just have a really hard time with that. It's saying that it wasn't sufficient and it was. To me, and I may be very different that most eternal security believers, but I feel a greater need and desire to be like my Savior because I recognize the price He paid and I want nothing more than to do something to repay Him even though I know nothing I do is worthy.

This is the heart of worship. Like we see in the woman with the alabaster box of perfume. A heart that is forgiven is compelled to express gratitude. Jesus said it best,

"Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven - for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little." Luke 7:47

[Guest Called]

Okay Deb, I don't know if it's that it's early or what but I am reading what your saying and it is making no sense to me. Can you clarify for me.....I am reading with an open mind btw...

Okay, let me see if I can explain it.. It is early for me too and I was up til midnight lastnight...

You said that people who don't believe in OSAS think that the cross was not enough to cover our sins and that is not the case. Here is the main point in that paragraph...

DEAD Faith in the blood of Christ is inadequate, not the blood. Remember, saved by Grace THROUGH Faith? It's not a matter of whether Christ's blood is adequate, it's a matter of whether you BELIEVE Christ's blood is adequate.

The blood of Christ is adequate enough to forgive us of your sins...there is no disagreement there. Okay?

The problem comes in when we think that just because we walked an aisle of a church that we have no more free will, no more responsibility on our part. I cannot get into this very deeply right now, maybe later....

[Orr v'emet]

Okay Deb, I don't know if it's that it's early or what but I am reading what your saying and it is making no sense to me.  Can you clarify for me.....I am reading with an open mind btw...

Okay, let me see if I can explain it.. It is early for me too and I was up til midnight lastnight...

You said that people who don't believe in OSAS think that the cross was not enough to cover our sins and that is not the case. Here is the main point in that paragraph...

DEAD Faith in the blood of Christ is inadequate, not the blood. Remember, saved by Grace THROUGH Faith? It's not a matter of whether Christ's blood is adequate, it's a matter of whether you BELIEVE Christ's blood is adequate.

The blood of Christ is adequate enough to forgive us of your sins...there is no disagreement there. Okay?

The problem comes in when we think that just because we walked an aisle of a church that we have no more free will, no more responsibility on our part. I cannot get into this very deeply right now, maybe later....

So far I agree. I would say that some who believe in eternal security live mediocre lives and are lukewarm. I would also say that they haven't truly had an encounter with God. I agree that some think one they are saved there is no responsibility on their part...oh my...where am I going with this? I better think some more, observe some more and remain quiet for a few. BTW, Tess, awesome post! You said everything I was thinking but didn't know how to say.

[Orr v'emet]

BTW, I didn't mean to imply that if you didn't believe in eternal security that you felt Jesus' blood was inadequte. It was just a thought to be thrown out there.

[Kabowd]

DEAD Faith in the blood of Christ is inadequate, not the blood. Remember, saved by Grace THROUGH Faith? It's not a matter of whether Christ's blood is adequate, it's a matter of whether you BELIEVE Christ's blood is adequate.

When you get the chance, I'd like to see Scriptural support for this please. Because the verses that come to mind for me are these:

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has not deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed", but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." James 2:14-18

Essentially, if you are claiming to live a life of faith, yet there is no fruit ...your faith is not alive. Earlier, Bob said not to throw out "well you weren't saved in the first place" (or something to that effect)...but, that is the essence of these verses (as well as the verses in John 15 about bearing fruit). An apple tree does not produce oranges. If your life does not reflect your faith in your actions, there is reason to question your faith. As the verses in James say, even the demons believe. It is one thing to have "belief" and entirely another to have "faith".

Edited August 10, 2004 by Tess

[Guest Called]

BTW, I didn't mean to imply that if you didn't believe in eternal security that you felt Jesus' blood was inadequte. It was just a thought to be thrown out there.

Think about this Kris...

One of the false "sweet frames" on which multitudes of sincere people rest their hope for eternity is the erroneous doctrine of unconditional security. Many who deplore the fact that some trust in church membership, baptism, decent living, and other false frames yet rest all their hope for salvation on a false frame just as deadly. Many, quite unconsciously, have transferred their faith from Christ Himself to the fact of a past conversion experience and the assumed validity of the popular doctrine "once in grace, always in grace". Their confidence now rests, not actually in Christ Himself, but in their conversion experience sometime in the past. They know the time and place they were saved; but they do not know Christ. They have no sense of present need for Him - no sense of present dependence on Christ for saving grace, no living faith in a living Savior. They are abiding, not in Christ the Living Vine, but in a popular doctrine. "I trusted Christ years ago," say they. But they have long since ceased trusting Him and now are trusting in their past conversion experience and in the erroneous assumption that 'once in grace, always in grace.

-Robert Shank, Life in the Son

[Kabowd]

Called, is there a reason you have completely ignored everything I've posted and are only continuing the discussion with one person in here? I'm just confused...