Sin, once repented, always forgiven?

[Kabowd]

OSAS is probably one of the most dangerous doctrines in the church today ...

And I believe the opposite is true. Believing you can lose your salvation is dangerous because it leads to a life of performance based faith.

Edited August 10, 2004 by Tess

[Kabowd]

Dime, you ignored my reference to I Timothy (not to mention, almost everything I've posted as been ignored). Also, are you suggesting that after Paul's conversion he was sinless?

Edited August 10, 2004 by Tess

[Khristeeanos]

OSAS is probably one of the most dangerous doctrines in the church today ...

And I believe the opposite is true. Believing you can lose your salvation is dangerous because it leads to a life of performance based faith.

If one doesn't understand faith (I mean a REAL, Biblically-defined saving faith), then this may be true.

I don't ever fear losing my salvation because God is real to me. I am not going to abandon my faith like so many have.

There are Biblical examples of people abandoning their faith - just read 1 Timothy and see where people "shipwreck" their faith.

If you truely want to understand the opposite position (instead of making false claims while misrepresenting a believers security position), then let's talk about this. If not, then why discuss it again?

I used to believe OSAS and would use the same arguments that the OSAS'ers use, so don't think I don't understand.

I just don't believe in it anymore.

[apothanein kerdos]

Could you show specifically how this is taken out of context please?

I thought I had already done that?

The Apostle Paul also said:

1 Thessalonians 2:6-10

We were not looking for praise from men, not from your or anyone else.

[Kabowd]

If you truely want to understand the opposite position (instead of making false claims while misrepresenting a believers security position), then let's talk about this. If not, then why discuss it again?

With all due respect, I've been discussing it. No one is responding directly to the Scriptures I've presented. Also, you have accused me of making false claims, you have the responsiblity of showing me where and how I've done so. You've also accused me of misrepresentation....unless you can prove where I've done so, then you are guilty of these things yourself.

I used to believe OSAS and would use the same arguments that the OSAS'ers use, so don't think I don't understand.

I just don't believe in it anymore.

And so far, you've failed to explain why. All you've done is make accusations and say that I don't understand. This contitutes discussion?

[Khristeeanos]

Dime, you ignored my reference to I Timothy (not to mention, almost everything I've posted as been ignored). Also, are you suggesting that after Paul's conversion he was sinless?

I didn't ignore it, I just haven't gotten to it yet.

So, here you go!

by tess:

Because, as I've been taught, in 1 Timothy 1:15 Paul admits to being the foremost sinner. Prior to verse 15 he is speaking in the past tense. But beginning in verse 15, he begins to speak in the present tense (in both Greek and English).

Well, again, is The Apostle Paul going to contradict himself?

He already said he was saved from the life he used to live. All through the NT, The Apostle Paul's letters have quotes from other people and even some Christian hymns. This could be the same thing. He was quoting himself just after his conversion. I don't know that, but you don't either. Do I have an answer for everything?

No. But it is obvious that The Apostle Paul taught a conditional security based upon continueing in the faith.

See: 1 Corinthians 15:2 and Colossians 1:21-23.

The word "IF" means a condition, right?

[Guest Called]

I say the opposite is true. I say a belief in which you can lose your salvation denies the nature of God and destroys the purpose behind Christianity.

How so?

[Kabowd]

If salvation is conditional upon our performance, not only does this contradict God's character it renders Ephesians 2:8,9 (as well as NUMEROUS other Scritpures) null and void.

[apothanein kerdos]

Dime, you ignored my reference to I Timothy (not to mention, almost everything I've posted as been ignored). Also, are you suggesting that after Paul's conversion he was sinless?

I didn't ignore it, I just haven't gotten to it yet.

So, here you go!

by tess:

Because, as I've been taught, in 1 Timothy 1:15 Paul admits to being the foremost sinner. Prior to verse 15 he is speaking in the past tense. But beginning in verse 15, he begins to speak in the present tense (in both Greek and English).

Well, again, is The Apostle Paul going to contradict himself?

He already said he was saved from the life he used to live. All through the NT, The Apostle Paul's letters have quotes from other people and even some Christian hymns. This could be the same thing. He was quoting himself just after his conversion. I don't know that, but you don't either. Do I have an answer for everything?

No. But it is obvious that The Apostle Paul taught a conditional security based upon continueing in the faith.

See: 1 Corinthians 15:2 and Colossians 1:21-23.

The word "IF" means a condition, right?

Again, terrible interpretations.

1 Corinthians 15:2 -

Paul is talking about recieving the Gospel in vain. That is, those who listen and try to live a good life but never truly accepted Christ. Again, ref. my previous post which shows it's impossible to have been saved and given up salvation. You've yet to respond to that.

Colossians 1:23 -

Isn't even talking about salvation. It's talking about when we stand before God and are judged as His children and recieve our gifts in heaven. Will we be told, "Well done good and faithful servant" or "Eh, you did alright". That's what Paul is refering to.

[Guest Called]

DEAD Faith in the blood of Christ is inadequate, not the blood. Remember, saved by Grace THROUGH Faith? It's not a matter of whether Christ's blood is adequate, it's a matter of whether you BELIEVE Christ's blood is adequate.

When you get the chance, I'd like to see Scriptural support for this please. Because the verses that come to mind for me are these:

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has not deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed", but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." James 2:14-18

Essentially, if you are claiming to live a life of faith, yet there is no fruit ...your faith is not alive. Earlier, Bob said not to throw out "well you weren't saved in the first place" (or something to that effect)...but, that is the essence of these verses (as well as the verses in John 15 about bearing fruit). An apple tree does not produce oranges. If your life does not reflect your faith in your actions, there is reason to question your faith. As the verses in James say, even the demons believe. It is one thing to have "belief" and entirely another to have "faith".

Tess, I was actually just trying to show KMB that just because we don't believe in OSAS doesn't mean we think that Christ's sacrifice on the cross wasn't enough to save us...That's it...