Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's?

[Bold Believer]

AMERICA HAS NO CAESAR. Rome was an occupying power, and not a legitimate government. The government of the United States is a legitimate (for now) government, of the people, by the people and for the people. It IS however rapidly heading toward "Caesarship" if you will. The Constitution is being thrown out the window little by little and being replaced with the Humanist Manifesto II; the Christian concepts which our Founding Fathers based our nation upon are rapidly being replaced with 'political correctness' and speech codes.

When challenged with the epithet 'Caesar is Lord', the early Church responded with 'Jesus Christ is Lord.' They were not afraid of the consequences. They died in droves. The American Church today is barely able to recognize the challenge, much less respond to it. Instead, it rolls over on its back and bares its belly and hopes the young wolf will not tear it to shreds. For now, the young wolf is content to sniff and growl. The question is: HOW LONG WILL THAT LAST? You see, the young wolf knows that the dog is bigger at this time. But as the young wolf gains more strength, it will soon no longer accept the dog's presence. It will kill the dog as a challenger to its dominion. Do not be fooled my brothers and sisters...THIS WOLF IS DANGEROUS AND YOU ARE ON ITS MENU.

There are two courses of action which we can take:

1. We can seek to put the wolf back in its place while it still knows that we are bigger.

2. We can continue to roll over to the wolf, knowing full well that when the old dog finally loses its strength, the wolf will devour both it AND ITS OFFSPRING.

IF we keep believing in the lie of the sacred-secular dichotomy, the idea that "religion" and "politics" don't mix, THE WOLF WILL EAT US FOR SURE. You see, the Enemy knows that religion and politics DO IN FACT MIX, you just have to get the ratio correct. The Church used to understand this, before 1830. We understood that a Christian nation didn't mean that everyone had to be a Christian, but that CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES AND PRECEPTS MEANT FREEDOM FOR EVERYONE, REGARDLESS OF THEIR RELIGIOUS CONVICTIONS.

Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God. (Thomas Jefferson)

[B3L13v3R]

A few more thoughts from some of the American forefathers:

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

- John Adams

Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak and that it is doing God's service when it is violating all his laws.

-John Adams

As long as our government is administered for the good of the people, and is regulated by their will; as long as it secures to us the rights of persons and of property, liberty of conscience and of the press, it will be worth defending.

- Andrew Jackson

Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.

- James Madison

If men were angels, no government would be necessary.

- James Madison

Our laws and institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of The Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise, and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian... This is a religious people. This is historically true.

-The Supreme Court Decision 1892 -Church of the Holy Trinity vs. The United States.

[Guest man]

Matthew 22

15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk.

16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying,

[Bold Believer]

Matthew 22

15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk.

16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying,

[Guest man]

Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

1 Peter 2

13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord

[Bold Believer]

Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

1 Peter 2

13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme,

14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.

15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men—

16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.

17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

Answer me this:

Did the daughter of Pharoah submit herself to every ordinance of men when she knwe the ordinance was evil?

Did Moses submit himself to every ordinance of men when he knew that the ordinance was evil?

Did Daniel submit himself to every ordinance of men when he knew that the ordinance was evil?

Did Peter and Paul and the other Apostles submit to every ordinance of men when they preached the Gospel after being told not to?

Did the early Church submit itself to the ordinance of Rome which decreed that the Emperor was to be worshiped as 'Lord'?

Did the Believers of France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany submit themselves to every ordinance of men when they said to the Nazis: 'Kein Juden hier' ?

Paul is not asking for blind obedience here. Note if you will verse 14 'for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.' When the government does what is right and what is just, by all means OBEY. And when the government does what is evil.. .RESIST. We are under no obligation to obey an evil government's every regulation as Christians. It is written: It is better to obey God then men.

Just because we're called sheep in Scripture doesn't mean we need to imitate them in every csse.

[Isaiah 6:8]

All though we have no Caesar, we do need to properly submit to those in authority. The beauty of our system, however corrupt it has become is this. We can remove those in power by a vote. If we can get all on the same page. The incumbents that are dropping like flies are proof of this. Now our for fathers did want us to be able to remove the government if they strayed from the cause of freedom. Some would say even by force. I don't believe this to be the wise thing to do, but "We The People" are to have the deciding factor in our government. This is going away slowly but surly and we need to fight back as we can, and legally.

[Guest man]

Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

1 Peter 2

13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord

[Isaiah 6:8]

Is following the rule of law, to change your leaders legally, resisting? Also what about Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach Abed-Nego. They resisted evil authority, when in direct conflict with the Lord and were honored bye the Lord. What about Peter, being put in prison for preaching, when told not to. Being freed miraculously. So there is president for disobeying the authority when needed. Now to overthrow maybe not. But with our governmental system we are allowed to, even asked to keep the government in balance.

[~candice~]

BB I'm still unclear about how you interpret 'render to Caesar what is Caesar's.

Is following the rule of law, to change your leaders legally, resisting? Also what about Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach Abed-Nego. They resisted evil authority, when in direct conflict with the Lord and were honored bye the Lord. What about Peter, being put in prison for preaching, when told not to. Being freed miraculously. So there is president for disobeying the authority when needed. Now to overthrow maybe not. But with our governmental system we are allowed to, even asked to keep the government in balance.

Nothing wrong with using legal procedures to seek to change the government. We also know that our obligation to obey the government doesn't extend to going against the Lord's will.