Why America MUST fall

[BlindSeeker]

Just as Paul was a Roman in the flesh, his heart was still first in the Kingdom of God.

But he did not call on Roman believers to stop being Romans. The Bible never calls us forsake loyalty to our country.

Was Paul "loyal" to Rome? Was there a great pride amongst the Christians that they were Romans?

(Working on it Dave . . . soon )

[nebula]

BlindSeeker -

There's something that's been bugging me, but I don't know how best to express it, so I haven't said anything. Oh well, I guess I'll just say what I can and see what happens.

When it comes to asking whether or not the founding of America was "Biblical", no I cannot reference any Scripture that would justify it.

The Colonists who started the revolution, however, believed they were acting under Divine authority, as their writings bear witness.

From the preceding discourse, I think we have reason to conclude, that the cause of this American Continent, against the measures of a cruel, bloody, and vindictive ministry, is the cause of God. We are contending for the rights of mankind, for the welfare of millions now living, and for the happiness of millions yet unborn. If it is the indisputed

duty of mankind, to do good to all as they have opportunity,especially to those who are of the household of faith, if they are bound by the commandments of the supreme lawgiver, to love their neighbor as themselves, and do to others as they would that others should do unto them ; then the war carried on against us, is unjust and unwarrantable, and our cause is not only righteous, but most important : It is God’s own cause : It is the grand cause of the whole human race, and what can be more interesting and glorious. If the principles on which the present civil war is carried on by the American colonies, against the British arms, were universally adopted and practiced upon by mankind, they would turn a vale of tears, into a paradise of God : whereas opposite principles, and a conduct, founded upon them, has filled the world with blood and stupor, with rapine and violence, with cruelty and injustice, with wretchedness, poverty, horror, desolation, and despair ; We cannot therefore doubt, that the cause of liberty, united with that of truth & righteousness, is the cause of God....

~Abraham Keteltas~

God Arising and Pleading His People’s Cause

Taken from here

(My goodness, is that an interesting read!)

However, I know that these men, even the ones who were genuine Christians, were influenced by Enlightenment philosophy.

So in that regard, your case seems to hold the greater argument.

Yet when it comes to observing the events of the Revolution, one has to question how the Colonists could have possibly succeeded if they were fighting against God. Throughout the war, at key moments when they should have perished in their fight, some miraculous intervention it seems kept the Americans protected from defeat - the infamous fog over the Delaware River being one of them.

Even in the War of 1812, the British had Washington, D.C. in its clutches and about to completely conquer it - when the city got hit with a hurricane (which put out the fires) which produced tornados, driving the British away from the city and saving DC.

Then I think of what America has done to spread the Gospel throughout the world - not the government, but the people. Yes, we've had great evil come out from America (i.e. Hollywood), but we've also had much good. For a long while, more missionaries came out of America than any other nation. I think that's changed now.

So, in that regard, I really have a hard time imagining America as the Beast from the Sea in Revelation.

[BlindSeeker]

Brother Seeker,

I would like to hear your opinion in regards to the woman riding the beast. I know that you regard her as the false religion of anti christ. You even link her to Nimrod and I feel that is correct too.

Here's the thing though, she was riding the beast even back then and that beast was typified by the rule of Nimrod and his Kingdom that he was trying to build up and that God took down because of, IMO, the times and the seasons.

This false Religion of anti-christ has ridden the back of many a Nation state, many a Kingdom. However, each one of those Nation states has had the iron grip of rule over the whole of the known world at the time and especially in regards to Israel as you have already stated. They have encompassed and trampled under the Middle East and in specific Israel.

Well Dave, there’s a lot I could answer here to. The trick is going to answer you without opening up too many more questions. Some of the problems we may have would stem from the fact that I do not hold to many of the popular end time theologies out there that hold to a seven year tribulation and an Anti-Christ world leader.

However, I think the key to understanding the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carries her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns, is their relation to Israel and each other in the last days.

There is much that has transpired in world history that isn’t addressed prophetically in scripture simply because it isn’t connected directly with the last days and/or correlated and Israel. So there is a considerable amount of history that transpired while Israel was in the “is not” phase, while the Jews were dispersed.

Please address how this false religion is currently stride upon America as the Beast in specific.

Again, there are at least four divisions. The woman I have describe already, but will attempt to address a bit more, though not really sure what you are looking for from me.

I was chided a few pages back because I said “Christianity” was the most perverted religion in the world, and certainly greatest volume of the false factions are here in America. Where else could the prosperity message flourish? Certainly not in Ethiopia. Almost all of these groups are licensed and structure under the 501c3 tax exempt status as non-profit religious organizations.

They have willing subjected themselves to strict government guidelines of what they "may" say from the pulpit in exchange for that status. To me, they would be better off just rendering unto Caesar and stay God’s freemen instead of going for the tax break. Plus, one of my big concerns is the large amount of “Christian” churches and organizations filing for and accepting grants from the government. I am persuaded if a thing/work/church is truly of God, it will find support apart from world system.

I believe that we do not fully comprehend the magnitude and the full extent of Jesus words –

Lu 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

To me the last days it is really going to be (as it was in the days of Christ) coming down to money and position for the churches, especially in America.

Much of what I would conclude as false end time rhetoric is nothing more than part of the flood sent forth to carry away those who would seek the truth, yet blindly accept a counterfeit from those who “appeared to be somewhat,” or spiritual authorities. Yet to me, these false messages only serve to cause procrastination and a misdirection of energy and resources.

Yet perhaps, one of the greatest ways the Mother Harlot has joined forces with America is with ecology and the green movement . . . as well as our president’s loyalty towards Islam. What he says is irrelevant, what he does is significant. However, when it comes right down to “it,” in order to move forward with the coming e-money system, there will need to be religious voices assuring the people that “this” isn’t “that” . . . which they will be able to do by holding all their false end time theologies pointing elsewhere for the mark of the beast to come with the worshipping of a world anti-christ figure.

Many American believers know more about what they believe about the end times from watching Tim Lahaye’s apocalyptic fiction Left Behind series. Evidence that many today cannot endure sound doctrine; it is to hard of a course to run with all that having to prove all things. It is easier to go to churches and be entertained by professional musicians being paid handsomely to first excite all the people with upbeat songs and then manipulate them into a pseudo harmonic worship with slower “worship” songs. But can they worship God in spirit and truth out on their own?

I am amazed by all the fancy churches boasting “Three Praise Services!” Yet where are the ministers crying out against sin, bringing forth God’s word for the season at hand? For years I have said that ministers can be guilty of mishandling God’s word simply by not speaking what His Spirit is saying. Nowadays Churches are following scripted messages from “corporate” while the Holy Spirit is continually quenched.

"Where?" you ask does this false religious whore “currently stride upon America as the Beast?” Look around all the religious wholesale outlets . . . "Feel good, God loves you as you are" religion is everywhere . . . while the end time famine for the word of God is increasing.

Also please address the clay that holds this last world dominating power together.

Your referencing clay I assume is a reference to Nebuchadnezzar dream in Daniel chapter 2.

Da 2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay,

they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay

.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

To me this is speaking of the old Roman Empire. “They” the Romans, “shall mingle themselves with the seed of men,” conquered nations who are brought under subjection, but not loyalty. Therefore “they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.” After Rome fulfilled its purpose of destroying Israel as a civil nation with a land, government and religious system, it too eventually fell into decline and eventually ceased giving way to the rise of the Roman Catholic Church.

This is what I believe Paul was addressing when he said, “Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?” At the time Paul was not yet a prisoner of Rome. But because Rome ruled with iron, to be caught writing that Rome would fall would only bring charges of sedition against Paul. Therefore Paul would wisely only refer back to what he had spoken when with them.

To teach the fall of Rome from Daniel would be no hard thing for Paul, it is right there. The difference you are taking it beyond Rome’s fall as the six mountain/head of the beast all the forward to the last days. I do not.

Therefore Paul was simply telling the Church of Thessalonica that before the man of sin could come and take authority, Rome had to fall.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first

[departure from the truth of the Gospel]

, and that man of sin

[position of the papacy]

be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God

[as the Vicar, incarnate representative of God]

, or that is worshipped; so that he as God [incarnate representative] sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth

[the Roman Empire]

that he

[the papacy]

might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth

[prevents]

will let

[prevent the papacy rise to power]

, until he

[Rome]

be taken out of the way

[or falls]

.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Now, I know there are those out there who reject this; that is fine. I am but sharing my position for Dave’s understanding of my perspective of things. Should any which to debate it here, I will not. Start another thread and I may post if so inclined. The thread here is about America.

Therefore Dave, I do not take the “clay” forward to our time. However, I do always consider and reason things, challenging my own self and position. If there were a “clay” holding nations together globally, I would say again, it is money. The dollar has long been the standard of much of the world market while the euro has rising and other currency as well threatening replacement of the dollar. (Mind you, I am not economist, I work with my hands and wood.)

Even with the EU we can see the clay factor with Germany and France considering departure from the EU and the euro because of failing economics.

The beast that was, is, and will be is very clearly Rome. Rome was the last dominant world power. However, it is very clearly also every dominate World power prior to Rome. It just keeps changing forms and no wonder. They also trampled Israel under foot. I agree that we and the Briitish Empire as well as the Ottoman's prior were an ensample of this power. We even came from this Power. However, I postulate that we are the "IS". Yet I clearly do not agree that this Beast has yet risen from the pit to become the "will be". We are just retaining it's position. When Rome fell it disintegrated into many little pieces and it as yet to return to it's former state. However, it is clear from Daniel and his vision that it will be revived and that it will be held together loosely not as with it's former Iron but in a loose confederation of some common interest.

Can you specifically address these issues?

Perhaps it is best if I just give you my convictions on what is going to happen from my prayers and studies of Revelation.

For years I have taught that America is the eighth beast headed for destruction. To finally bring us to this place I’ve continually said we would one day turn against Israel, to which I would continually get much grief about me not knowing what I am talking about. (Open a wide door there didn’t I?) People would state how Israel was the only other democracy in the Middle East, our only true ally there. We would never turn against Israel I would be admonishingly told . . . yet here we are.

Back before the EU and the Euro, I believed there would be (for all intents and purposes) a United States of Europe with a common currency amongst them. But I also believed that both the American currency and the EU currency were going to suffer economic crisis’s to the point of a necessary revamping of a more global monetary system. Basically between America (the 8th beast) and the ten horns (the EU).

This is what I believe the following verse refers to –

Re 17:12 And the ten horns

[the revise Roman Empire/EU]

which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet

[simply meaning in the future]

; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

I believe that our president, this one or the next, will attempt to stabilize the global economic crisis (or at least an attempt to keep from succumbing to China’s economic strength) with the introduction of a new e-economic system in an effort to maintain power and influence in the global community.

However, I believe the consent of the EU to go along with this proposed system will be a short term thing (power as kings one hour with the beast). For the scripture goes on to say –

Re 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Now as I stated a few post back, logic has no place here. It is God putting it their hearts to do this thing. This is why I have always believed the EU to be the true threat to America as far as her being destroyed. But of course, it is our sins which have really brought about our fall.

Re 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

People continually tell me, other nations have been more wicked. Yes, perhaps. But what other nation claimed (up until this presidency) to be a Christian nation under God, on whose money it is printed “In God we trust?” Yet, more importantly, we who have been the guardian of Israel, are now befriending her enemies and seeking to divide her land and even Jerusalem.

No. Judgment has begun in my opinion. The remaining time we ought to ourselves repent and warn others to as well, to whole heartedly seek holiness in spirit and truth. Presenting ourselves as as living sacrifices, wholly for the purposes of God and His name's sake.

America is headed for destruction.

[BlindSeeker]

BlindSeeker -

There's something that's been bugging me, but I don't know how best to express it, so I haven't said anything. Oh well, I guess I'll just say what I can and see what happens.

When it comes to asking whether or not the founding of America was "Biblical", no I cannot reference any Scripture that would justify it.

The Colonists who started the revolution, however, believed they were acting under Divine authority, as their writings bear witness.

From the preceding discourse, I think we have reason to conclude, that the cause of this American Continent, against the measures of a cruel, bloody, and vindictive ministry, is the cause of God. We are contending for the rights of mankind, for the welfare of millions now living, and for the happiness of millions yet unborn. If it is the indisputed

duty of mankind, to do good to all as they have opportunity,especially to those who are of the household of faith, if they are bound by the commandments of the supreme lawgiver, to love their neighbor as themselves, and do to others as they would that others should do unto them ; then the war carried on against us, is unjust and unwarrantable, and our cause is not only righteous, but most important : It is God’s own cause : It is the grand cause of the whole human race, and what can be more interesting and glorious. If the principles on which the present civil war is carried on by the American colonies, against the British arms, were universally adopted and practiced upon by mankind, they would turn a vale of tears, into a paradise of God : whereas opposite principles, and a conduct, founded upon them, has filled the world with blood and stupor, with rapine and violence, with cruelty and injustice, with wretchedness, poverty, horror, desolation, and despair ; We cannot therefore doubt, that the cause of liberty, united with that of truth & righteousness, is the cause of God....

~Abraham Keteltas~

God Arising and Pleading His People’s Cause

Taken from here

(My goodness, is that an interesting read!)

However, I know that these men, even the ones who were genuine Christians, were influenced by Enlightenment philosophy.

So in that regard, your case seems to hold the greater argument.

Yet when it comes to observing the events of the Revolution, one has to question how the Colonists could have possibly succeeded if they were fighting against God. Throughout the war, at key moments when they should have perished in their fight, some miraculous intervention it seems kept the Americans protected from defeat - the infamous fog over the Delaware River being one of them.

Even in the War of 1812, the British had Washington, D.C. in its clutches and about to completely conquer it - when the city got hit with a hurricane (which put out the fires) which produced tornados, driving the British away from the city and saving DC.

Then I think of what America has done to spread the Gospel throughout the world - not the government, but the people. Yes, we've had great evil come out from America (i.e. Hollywood), but we've also had much good. For a long while, more missionaries came out of America than any other nation. I think that's changed now.

So, in that regard, I really have a hard time imagining America as the Beast from the Sea in Revelation.

Sister Nebula,

I don't know much to tell you other than why I believe as I do, by endeavoring to submit scriptures for my position and beliefs. I am uncomfortable (contrary to the presumptuous conclusions of some) with my beliefs . . . as was Jeremiah, though certainly not in like measure of sorrow, but sorrow nonetheless. I feel guilty at times for not weeping more, though I believe that will surely soon come to pass.

Was God sovereign in allowing America to rise to power as He did Babylon, the Medes and Persians, Greece and Rome? Certainly. But that does not make us one nation under God then His sovereignty to let them rise free them from the presence of the Woman that rides the beast through the ages.

All I can submit to you is that the adversary does come as an angel of light, and his ministers as ministers of righteousness . . . though they certainly are not. Nevertheless the exhortation to live by every word proceeding from the mouth of God, to give heed to the sure word of prophecy and the admonition of Jesus to Peter that they who live by the sword will die by it must find application to America too, or no?

Plus, America hasn't sent out the Gospel, God own servants have done that at their own expense and personal hazard. Many missionaries even coming here to America from other countries in an attempt to evangelize us with the true of the spirit of God's word.

Bottom line, you know the tree by its fruit.

Sweet Sister Nebula, I seek not to persuade you, rather I would you could persuade me. I have kids, a beautiful granddaughter, a desire to grow old(er) with my wife . . . however, since this is what burns in my heart as true, I must share it.

William

[hayahtowb]

I did write the book down, so if I get a chance I will look it up.

Brother in Christ

William L. Zimmerman (OldZimm)

It's documented history, have fun.

[Matthitjah]

Brother Seeker,

I would like to hear your opinion in regards to the woman riding the beast. I know that you regard her as the false religion of anti christ. You even link her to Nimrod and I feel that is correct too.

Here's the thing though, she was riding the beast even back then and that beast was typified by the rule of Nimrod and his Kingdom that he was trying to build up and that God took down because of, IMO, the times and the seasons.

This false Religion of anti-christ has ridden the back of many a Nation state, many a Kingdom. However, each one of those Nation states has had the iron grip of rule over the whole of the known world at the time and especially in regards to Israel as you have already stated. They have encompassed and trampled under the Middle East and in specific Israel.

Well Dave, there’s a lot I could answer here to. The trick is going to answer you without opening up too many more questions. Some of the problems we may have would stem from the fact that I do not hold to many of the popular end time theologies out there that hold to a seven year tribulation and an Anti-Christ world leader.

However, I think the key to understanding the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carries her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns, is their relation to Israel and each other in the last days.

There is much that has transpired in world history that isn’t addressed prophetically in scripture simply because it isn’t connected directly with the last days and/or correlated and Israel. So there is a considerable amount of history that transpired while Israel was in the “is not” phase, while the Jews were dispersed.

Please address how this false religion is currently stride upon America as the Beast in specific.

Again, there are at least four divisions. The woman I have describe already, but will attempt to address a bit more, though not really sure what you are looking for from me.

I was chided a few pages back because I said “Christianity” was the most perverted religion in the world, and certainly greatest volume of the false factions are here in America. Where else could the prosperity message flourish? Certainly not in Ethiopia. Almost all of these groups are licensed and structure under the 501c3 tax exempt status as non-profit religious organizations.

They have willing subjected themselves to strict government guidelines of what they "may" say from the pulpit in exchange for that status. To me, they would be better off just rendering unto Caesar and stay God’s freemen instead of going for the tax break. Plus, one of my big concerns is the large amount of “Christian” churches and organizations filing for and accepting grants from the government. I am persuaded if a thing/work/church is truly of God, it will find support apart from world system.

I believe that we do not fully comprehend the magnitude and the full extent of Jesus words –

Lu 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

To me the last days it is really going to be (as it was in the days of Christ) coming down to money and position for the churches, especially in America.

Much of what I would conclude as false end time rhetoric is nothing more than part of the flood sent forth to carry away those who would seek the truth, yet blindly accept a counterfeit from those who “appeared to be somewhat,” or spiritual authorities. Yet to me, these false messages only serve to cause procrastination and a misdirection of energy and resources.

Yet perhaps, one of the greatest ways the Mother Harlot has joined forces with America is with ecology and the green movement . . . as well as our president’s loyalty towards Islam. What he says is irrelevant, what he does is significant. However, when it comes right down to “it,” in order to move forward with the coming e-money system, there will need to be religious voices assuring the people that “this” isn’t “that” . . . which they will be able to do by holding all their false end time theologies pointing elsewhere for the mark of the beast to come with the worshipping of a world anti-christ figure.

Many American believers know more about what they believe about the end times from watching Tim Lahaye’s apocalyptic fiction Left Behind series. Evidence that many today cannot endure sound doctrine; it is to hard of a course to run with all that having to prove all things. It is easier to go to churches and be entertained by professional musicians being paid handsomely to first excite all the people with upbeat songs and then manipulate them into a pseudo harmonic worship with slower “worship” songs. But can they worship God in spirit and truth out on their own?

I am amazed by all the fancy churches boasting “Three Praise Services!” Yet where are the ministers crying out against sin, bringing forth God’s word for the season at hand? For years I have said that ministers can be guilty of mishandling God’s word simply by not speaking what His Spirit is saying. Nowadays Churches are following scripted messages from “corporate” while the Holy Spirit is continually quenched.

"Where?" you ask does this false religious whore “currently stride upon America as the Beast?” Look around all the religious wholesale outlets . . . "Feel good, God loves you as you are" religion is everywhere . . . while the end time famine for the word of God is increasing.

Also please address the clay that holds this last world dominating power together.

Your referencing clay I assume is a reference to Nebuchadnezzar dream in Daniel chapter 2.

Da 2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay,

they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay

.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

To me this is speaking of the old Roman Empire. “They” the Romans, “shall mingle themselves with the seed of men,” conquered nations who are brought under subjection, but not loyalty. Therefore “they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.” After Rome fulfilled its purpose of destroying Israel as a civil nation with a land, government and religious system, it too eventually fell into decline and eventually ceased giving way to the rise of the Roman Catholic Church.

This is what I believe Paul was addressing when he said, “Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?” At the time Paul was not yet a prisoner of Rome. But because Rome ruled with iron, to be caught writing that Rome would fall would only bring charges of sedition against Paul. Therefore Paul would wisely only refer back to what he had spoken when with them.

To teach the fall of Rome from Daniel would be no hard thing for Paul, it is right there. The difference you are taking it beyond Rome’s fall as the six mountain/head of the beast all the forward to the last days. I do not.

Therefore Paul was simply telling the Church of Thessalonica that before the man of sin could come and take authority, Rome had to fall.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first

[departure from the truth of the Gospel]

, and that man of sin

[position of the papacy]

be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God

[as the Vicar, incarnate representative of God]

, or that is worshipped; so that he as God [incarnate representative] sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth

[the Roman Empire]

that he

[the papacy]

might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth

[prevents]

will let

[prevent the papacy rise to power]

, until he

[Rome]

be taken out of the way

[or falls]

.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Now, I know there are those out there who reject this; that is fine. I am but sharing my position for Dave’s understanding of my perspective of things. Should any which to debate it here, I will not. Start another thread and I may post if so inclined. The thread here is about America.

Therefore Dave, I do not take the “clay” forward to our time. However, I do always consider and reason things, challenging my own self and position. If there were a “clay” holding nations together globally, I would say again, it is money. The dollar has long been the standard of much of the world market while the euro has rising and other currency as well threatening replacement of the dollar. (Mind you, I am not economist, I work with my hands and wood.)

Even with the EU we can see the clay factor with Germany and France considering departure from the EU and the euro because of failing economics.

The beast that was, is, and will be is very clearly Rome. Rome was the last dominant world power. However, it is very clearly also every dominate World power prior to Rome. It just keeps changing forms and no wonder. They also trampled Israel under foot. I agree that we and the Briitish Empire as well as the Ottoman's prior were an ensample of this power. We even came from this Power. However, I postulate that we are the "IS". Yet I clearly do not agree that this Beast has yet risen from the pit to become the "will be". We are just retaining it's position. When Rome fell it disintegrated into many little pieces and it as yet to return to it's former state. However, it is clear from Daniel and his vision that it will be revived and that it will be held together loosely not as with it's former Iron but in a loose confederation of some common interest.

Can you specifically address these issues?

Perhaps it is best if I just give you my convictions on what is going to happen from my prayers and studies of Revelation.

For years I have taught that America is the eighth beast headed for destruction. To finally bring us to this place I’ve continually said we would one day turn against Israel, to which I would continually get much grief about me not knowing what I am talking about. (Open a wide door there didn’t I?) People would state how Israel was the only other democracy in the Middle East, our only true ally there. We would never turn against Israel I would be admonishingly told . . . yet here we are.

Back before the EU and the Euro, I believed there would be (for all intents and purposes) a United States of Europe with a common currency amongst them. But I also believed that both the American currency and the EU currency were going to suffer economic crisis’s to the point of a necessary revamping of a more global monetary system. Basically between America (the 8th beast) and the ten horns (the EU).

This is what I believe the following verse refers to –

Re 17:12 And the ten horns

[the revise Roman Empire/EU]

which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet

[simply meaning in the future]

; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

I believe that our president, this one or the next, will attempt to stabilize the global economic crisis (or at least an attempt to keep from succumbing to China’s economic strength) with the introduction of a new e-economic system in an effort to maintain power and influence in the global community.

However, I believe the consent of the EU to go along with this proposed system will be a short term thing (power as kings one hour with the beast). For the scripture goes on to say –

Re 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Now as I stated a few post back, logic has no place here. It is God putting it their hearts to do this thing. This is why I have always believed the EU to be the true threat to America as far as her being destroyed. But of course, it is our sins which have really brought about our fall.

Re 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

People continually tell me, other nations have been more wicked. Yes, perhaps. But what other nation claimed (up until this presidency) to be a Christian nation under God, on whose money it is printed “In God we trust?” Yet, more importantly, we who have been the guardian of Israel, are now befriending her enemies and seeking to divide her land and even Jerusalem.

No. Judgment has begun in my opinion. The remaining time we ought to ourselves repent and warn others to as well, to whole heartedly seek holiness in spirit and truth. Presenting ourselves as as living sacrifices, wholly for the purposes of God and His name's sake.

America is headed for destruction.

Thanks brother,

That clarifies your position although I don't agree with it. I do agree with alot of what you have said though. There will be a coming economic unity, IMO, and for all the reasons you've stated and we know from the mouths of our own leaders that they don't want to waste any crisis. The next economic crisis will bring with it authoritarian control. I've been saying that for years and we are on the precipice.

You haven't sufficiently explained why America is the Beast and tied it into the scripture defining the Beast and for me that's not enough.

IMO, the Judgment that we are under and the impending fall of America is making the way for the Beast. We have seen the two world systems collapse. Communism and Capitalism. This is to make way for a new system. Totalianariansim. It's why Capitalism is being besmirched daily. It will really be Nationalism a new Nationalism that will take it's place. International Nationalism and the Religion of Humanism will take it's place.

I believe that what Paul told them was that there would be a Great Falling away from the Word. Which you have detailed and that this would lead up to and be a run up to this Secular Humanistic Religion that will reveal man seated on the throne. After all, they were frightened by reports that the Parousia had already happened. This falling away was already happening as Churchs began to set man and his mindset above Gods Word. (ie; The Pope shortly after Pauls day, homosexual priests and leaders today, universal salvation, all religions lead to God, etc...... )

Here's the thing though, I have stated that Rome still exists, it still "is" in the form of the many varied Nations who have held it's place. Like the current American Empire, but even now America is being moved out of the way and what will replace her isn't China, but a new World Government. The Governmental Civil authority last held in Rome over the World will be pushed out of the way as this New World Order and Religion grasp control.

According to Paul it is this New Order and one that is no longer merely a Civil authority that God destroys;

2Th 2:8

And then shall that Wicked One be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Th 2:9

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

There's only One who is a King and a Priest before God and His name is Jesus. No one else has ever tied the two together but satan is a rip off artist and will try to bring the Civil authority and Religious authority under one rule with signs and lying wonders

peace,

dave

[Shiloh62]

It's becoming pretty obvious that there are forces, spiritual, internal and external, which want the United States to fall. While on the surface these forces appear each to have their own agendas, they are in fact united in goal. What is that goal? To destroy the last Christian nation. Some will argue that we are no longer a Christian nation, or that we never were. HOGWASH. It is obvious that the US was in fact founded upon the Christian precepts practiced in the world at the time of her inception.

Now, some 234 years later, the last vestiges of Christian precept are being challenged by humanist precept that elevates man to god-like status. Why? Because once America is out of the way with her Christian precepts and beliefs, the floodgates will be open for Gog to march. America is the cork in the bottle. If you pull the cork, ANYTHING can get into the bottle and pollute the wine.

I was afraid of that.

[Bold Believer]

Have you read through my other America threads where I address the ten horns?

Nope. Do they address how the two beasts in Daniel and Revelation are the exact same Beast?

peace,

Dave

Yes they are: ROME.

America is not the Beast. The Beast was destroyed by Christ, Christianity became predominant, the Gospel went out into the world. America was just one of many Christian nations which helped to spread the Gospel. Now America is the last remaining Christian nation which still acknowledges, however weakly, the fact. Gog-satan needs America out of the way, either physically (by destruction) or by irrelevance, but he (Gog-satan) must petition God to do it. To this point, God has not permitted the complete destruction of the United States.

[BlindSeeker]

Thanks brother,

That clarifies your position although I don't agree with it. I do agree with alot of what you have said though. There will be a coming economic unity, IMO, and for all the reasons you've stated and we know from the mouths of our own leaders that they don't want to waste any crisis. The next economic crisis will bring with it authoritarian control. I've been saying that for years and we are on the precipice.

You haven't sufficiently explained why America is the Beast and tied it into the scripture defining the Beast and for me that's not enough.

Well Dave, that's OK. And please, do not take this the wrong way . . . I am posting this in honest inquiry and love and respect for you . . .

Can you direct me anywhere where I can review your position, or maybe to others here where it is so outlined by scripture and history?

I believe as I do because I have not been overly slack in my prayers and studies, nor in my willingness to submit it to other believers for refutation and consideration. Whatever the question, I take the time to address it thoroughly. Yet be honest, I have yet to see much at all anywhere where equal labor has been presented . . . without a solicitation for money in order to have the privilege to read through it all.

I am very wiling to consider other possibilities of interpretations . . . I just find all the "off the cuff" comments without some line upon line scriptural outline establishing one's perspective a small counter measure in the scale of reasoning. I am not saying that he with the most words is correct, but he certainly may well be the one more clearly understood. This thread is full of claims and disagreements by people simply spouting out their position . . . yet apparently unwilling, or maybe just lacking conviction, to make a reasonable attempt to support it.

I do, because I have a fear that "woe" to me if I don't if I am correct. Then the blood of other's will be required at my hands. Surely you have witnessed my love and zeal for the more peaceable truths of scripture, to reason and share those things that cause us to delight and rejoice in the mercies and grace and wondrous glory of the incarnation of our Savoir. How I would love to focus only on those things . . . yet I cannot, I am compelled by holy fear to warn others of the wrath to come. These things terrify me, not because I have no trust in the Lord, but rather because I understand He is holy and His judgments righteous.

Please . . . anyone . . . if you have something truly worthy of consideration, a conviction of truth concerning these things . . . then be not slack in presenting that which God's Holy Spirit has so convinced you. If you don't, or won't, then why not?

" . . . they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

William

Edited July 15, 2010 by BlindSeeker

[Matthitjah]

Brother William,

I meant no offense. I honor, Love, and Respect you too brother. You started the thread so it stands to reason that you should be able to back up your assertions in Love as you Love, Revere, and Awe the Truth.

I was seeking clarification on the Scriptural references to the Beast in Daniel and Revelation being one and the same and IMO you haven't offered any where your position is concerned.

Do folks not have the right to examine your theory in light of Scripture? If they do as you assert then it shouldn't be a problem to ask sincere questions of you. You should be able to scripturally an logically reason these issues out for us.

I'm not the one stating that America is the Beast. If I were I would be prepared to back up my assertions and if I believe them to be the Truth then they will stand on their own and should be enabled to stand scriptural scrutiny. Plus it wouldn't bother me if folks disagree. Let God be True and every man a liar. I think we will all be surprised at how things shake out in finality.

If you feel that my question has no bearing or merit then please say so.

Much Grace to you dear brother.

peace,

Dave