Baptismal regeneration vs baptismal confession

[Leonard]

Today if we want to judge whether someone is a Christian we ask if they have ever 'accepted Christ as your personal savior' (something the Bible NEVER directs us to do!).

If John Calvin wondered whether someone were a Christian he would ask: "Is he baptized? Is he in fellowship with a local church? Is he receiving the Sacraments?"

Seems to me that Evangelical Christians have simply left behnd some pretty important teachings..........

[Guest]

With The Holy Ghost And With Fire

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him

which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them;

and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

And all the men were about twelve. Acts 19:2-7

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Today if we want to judge whether someone is a Christian we ask if they have ever 'accepted Christ as your personal savior' (something the Bible NEVER directs us to do!).

If John Calvin wondered whether someone were a Christian he would ask: "Is he baptized? Is he in fellowship with a local church? Is he receiving the Sacraments?"

Seems to me that Evangelical Christians have simply left behind some pretty important teachings..........

Weren't the doctrines of Calvin 'predestination'? After he pulled off the clout issue with the Swiss government didn't he and his group begin persecuting Christians? Wasn't that one of the reasons that the Amish (Ana Baptist) petitioned William Penn to come to PA for religious freedom to escape persecution from Calvin and Luther? Is that not documented history?

Water?

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matthew 3:11

What Did Jesus Say

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

Even Our Dear Old Brother Saul Knew

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:1-2

Salvation Is Of Jesus Christ

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

Not By Works

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8

But By Faith In Messiah As The Bible Tells Us

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And With Meekness And Tender Love, Believers Still Declare Yeshua (Jesus) Is Salvation!

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Timothy 2:24-26

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In My Bible

Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me. Psalms 119:133

When A Person Confessed Jesus As LORD

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be save.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

The Believers Would Immediately Baptized Him Or Her

And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? Acts 8:36

Yet Today I See Folks Teaching Water Baptism As Needful For Salvation

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36-36

Often Dilly-Dallying Around For Two Or Three Months While They Indoctrinate The Believer Into This Creed Or That

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Corinthians 11:2-4

Before Scheduling The Baptism At Some Time Or Another The Authorities May Deem Appropriate

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13

Kinda Makes One Wonder How These Folks Can Sleep At Night Thinking

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Romans 8:16

A Believer's Salvation Weighs In Their Balance

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

While They Slumber

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me?

I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD. Psalms 116:12-13

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest]

..... How do we make sense of all this. Salvation requires....

Well

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

Yes

And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. Numbers 21:9

Yes

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:14-15

Salvation Is Of Jesus

But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD. Jonah 2:9

Plus Nothing

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Mark 8:25-37

Minus Nothing

Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 8:38

Just One Touch

When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.

For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.

And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague. Mark 5:27-29

And Without Man's Brag

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. Luke 17:10

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:18-19

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest]

God's

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

Work

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:13

[UncleAbee]

Mark 16:16 never changes no matter what length of words anyone writes - "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." Nothing changes the first part of that statement. It amazes me that when the Jews asked Peter "what must we do" in Acts 2 Peter did not say "Trust the Lord" or "Just Believe." He gave them two things to do (repent and be baptized.) They had to believe first to do these things. They had to "hear" to know what to believe. They had to have faith for all these things to work which comes from hearing (Rom 10:17).

Edited July 9, 2010 by UncleAbee

[UncleAbee]

Quotes by Samuel

"Baptismal regeneration says that if one is baptised, they are saved as the act of baptism saves them."

The "act of baptism" does not save. If that were true all who go swimming would be saved. Rather, Christ saves through baptism. That is a different statement. Baptism is the tool that Christ uses to save you. In the same way God saved Noah through the building of the ark (Heb 11:7). The "ark" in and of itself did not save Noah. God saved Noah through the use of the ark. Christ saves us through the use of baptism.

"This doctrine was rejected by Christians. Those who were promoting this doctrine were putting Christ as a created being and an Aeon. Their corrupted text were an attempt to create a bible and it did go to Alexandria where a school of theology was created and those students later formed the Catholic Church under Constiintine. Constintine gave the commission to Esiebus to make 50 bibles of which the codex of 1488 and 1844 still exist and used to create many new modern translations."

I will agree that the Catholic church was not a good thing for Christianity. They perverted much of the doctrine to suit their own needs. Constantine saw Christianity as a means to an end. He needed the country united and new he could use religion to do it.

"Dear Uncle Abee: it seems you are saying that salvation is 3 fold? 1.) Believe that Jesus is the Christ 2.) Be baptised and 3.) keep yourself through works and not sinning. Is this correct. May I ask of what denomination you are?"

I believe this is biblically supported. John 3:16 - Believe in Christ. Mark 16:16 - Be baptized. 2 Peter 1:5-9 - continue in the faith. My religous affiliation is with the churches of Christ.

"Let this be known: I am a Christian. I am Baptist but you do not have to be a Baptist to be a Christian."

Then why do you want to be a Baptist? Why not just be a Christian? Was being a Baptist important to Christ? Did Christ command anyone to be a Baptist? Should it be important to you?

"You must accept Jesus as Christ and Lord. You should belong to a local church (local as opposed to universal). You should follow the Lord in His ordinances; believers baptism, communion and some say foot washing as these are the things Christ did and we are not above Him. Even King James would go to some poor persons house and take a gift and ask if he could wash their feet. Basically today we observe communion and baptism but I have also washed feet."

I agree with you mostly but not that baptism and communion are ordinances. An ordinance can be a command. Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor (Matt 22:39) as well as to be baptized (Mark 16:16). No one sees loving your neighbor as an ordinance though even though both are commands. Most see ordinances as long standing rites or rituals. Baptism is neither a rite nor a ritual. Gal 3:27 says "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Baptism is how Christ places you into His kingdom. Communion is a worship expression. Jesus specifically sat his disciples down and taught them how to do it. He then asked them to keep this practice (Luke 22:19). The disciples are recorded doing this every week (Acts 20:7). Paul records communion as the reason brethren assembled (1 Cor 11:33). Communion is the only worship expression in the bible you can find that the disciples specifically came together to do. It should be done every Lord's day. It is how we share in and remember the Lord's death and resurrection. It is much more than an ordinance.

"If you are saying that baptism is necessary for salvation; are you? Then, what about someone that accepts Christ as Lord and then dies?"

I always get these far fetched questions. I have been in the Lord's church for going on ten years now. There has not been one instance where enough water to baptize was not available or anyone died after confessing Christ as savior. I've been asked these kind of questions by people who are not in those situation. I was studying with a person who asked me that question. I answered what does that have to do with us? I'm teaching you now and the water is right over there ready and available. It amazes me that religous folk will make sure a piano is in the church (not authorized by the bible) but will make no room for a baptism to take place in their church (which is authorized by the bible).

"I think Constintine was baptised on his death bed as he though if you were baptised and then commited a sin you could not go to Heaven."

Constantine was not concerned about Christ. He was only concerned with how to use Christianity to control his subjects. I have also heard the story of Constantine's baptism. I don't know if he really did that or if he genuinely repented before baptism. Baptism is not the end all be all of salvation. It is a step along the way no more important than any other step. All steps must be done as Christ has commanded. One must repent and confess Christ as savior as well. Baptism must be done through faith. It is up to God to judge whether Constantine did these things or not.

Edited July 12, 2010 by UncleAbee

[UncleAbee]

Quotes by Samuel

"I really thought you religion was CoC. You folks believe you are the only one's going to Heaven. That is part of your doctrine. I've had many conversations with CoC people and they say unless your name is on their chruch leger you are not going to Heaven as it is the Lamb's book of life. And someone's name has to be on your church register. Baptismal regeneration has always been rejected by Christians."

It is up to God to decide who gets in and who doesn't. I can only tell you what the bible says.

"The CoC (Church of Christ) was started by Campbell in the 1700's in WV, USA and Ben Frankin join (probably the most famous member). Franklin was a master mason and member of the 'Hell Fire Club'. There are a great varying CoC nowadays with grossly different beliefs though; but, there are 60 sects of Mormons too. Catholics have some that flogg themselves and some that flogg others apparently and abuse children, housewifes and nuns."

Campbell popularized the back to the bible movement. The COC was started by Christ. We do not hold the market on the name COC. Any church name that is scripturally authorized is ok by us. We use COC because we find it in the scriptures (Mark 16:16). We don't use Baptist church because it is not in the scriptures.

"They may try to change the word of God and create confussion but God is still on the throne and still will judge. Yes I stand before God and yes, I follow Christ rather than man-made religions."

I 100% agree with you.

"You said and I quote; " Baptism is how Christ places you into His kingdom." This is a false religion. The theif on the cross wasn't Baptised. Abraham wasn't Baptised. It is said after Christ rose from the dead that Abraham was seen in the streets of Jerusalem. I think I have a copy of a letter by Pilate to Cesar to that effect. This baptismal regeneration is man-made religion. It did not come from the apostles nor even the first century. Campbell is far removed by starting a religion in the 1700's."

Who cares about the Thief on the Cross? What were you commanded to do in Acts 2:38 after Peter opened the doors to the church? We have to understand that Jesus was speaking to the thief alone. Peter was speaking to all of us who want to be in the church. Abraham was under a different law. He did what he was commanded at that time. We have to do the same thing. Gal 3:27 clearly states that we are baptized "into" Christ. Mark 16:16 ties baptism and salvation together. This is plain teaching.

[Guest]

....What were you commanded to do in Acts 2:38 after Peter opened the doors to the church....

Who

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,

because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor;

he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, Luke 4:18

Opened

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all,

who is above all, and through all,

and in you all. Ephesians 4:4-6

The Door

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers:

but the sheep did not hear them.

I am the door:

by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. John 10:7-10

To Who's Church?

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Colossians 1:18-20

Shame On Those Who would

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. Matthew 23:8-10

Lord It Over The

But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. Revelation 2:6

Sheep

So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Revelation 2:15

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Peter was speaking to all of us who want to be in the church. Abraham was under a different law. He did what he was commanded at that time. We have to do the same thing. Gal 3:27 clearly states that we are baptized "into" Christ. Mark 16:16 ties baptism and salvation together. This is plain teaching.

Well

Grandfather Abraham

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4

Was Under The Law Of Faith

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:3

But Then Again, We Are Under The Same Law

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28

Of Salvation By Grace By Faith

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

And Baptism By Water

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matthew 3:17

Is Not The Baptism Of Christ

John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Luke 3:16

Which Is The Birth Of The New Child Of God

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:5-7

And This Dear Folk Is Plain Teaching Indeed

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6

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Believe

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

And Be Blessed Beloved

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 1 John 3:1

Love, Joe

[UncleAbee]

Great scriptures Fresno. What about the following? James 2:14-24.

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

16and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

19You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Doing the "works of Christ" is necessary for your salvation. Jesus says that we will be judged by our works (Matt 16:27). God is going to examine the fruit that we bear (Matt 17:17-21). These fruits are the results of the work we do by faith. There is no place in scripture where God says He is going to judge your faith. Faith makes the work acceptable to God (Rom 14:23). Faith and works are necessary for your salvation. Either of them alone produces nothing. Belief gives you the power to do the work. God examines the work that faith produces.

Edited July 16, 2010 by UncleAbee

[Guest]

....What about the following? James 2:14-24.24....

James Is No Different That Any Follower Of Christ For His Letter Is Still All About Faith

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. James 2:18

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Faith

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 9:30-33

Or Not

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

Your Choice