Catholicism

[georgesbluegirl]

good point...poor sean lennon, having her for a mom...

[mobile21]

If you read the passage prohibiting necromancing in context, you'll see that it is forbidding the accessing of mediums and magicians, not what you seem to think is indiscriminate contact.

Is this the pasage you're referring to? (I have an NIV Bible)

Deut. 18:10-12

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD

Looks to me like a listing of distinct characteristics, separated by "or".

engages in witchcraft or

casts spells or

medium or

spiritist or

consults the dead.

Doesn't look to me like it requires one person with all these traits.

You are missing the point:

Before Jesus Christ, Heaven was closed (we already had this discussion I believe) but after Him, Saints are in Heaven.

[GoodSamaritan]

consults the dead.

Just provide me the verse that says the saints are dead. Every verse I've provided seems to show that they are ALIVE, not dead. So consulting the dead doesn't apply in the case that the saints, who are alive in Heaven in Revelations 5, 6, 8, 21and 22. We also see saints interceding for people on earth in 1 Sam 28:12-15, interacting with people in the Transfiguration, and actually helping a soldier in battle in 2 Macc 15:13-16. We also see Ruth in Heaven praying for and interceding for her family in the OT. How, if they are dead, can this be? Moses, in Deut 34, DIES:

Then Moses went up from the plains of Moab upon mount Nebo, to the top of Phasga over against Jericho: and the Lord shewed him all the land of Galaad as far as Dan.

And Moses the servant of the Lord died there, in the land of Moab, by the commandment of the Lord: And he buried him in the valley of the land of Moab over against Phogor: and no man hath known of his sepulchre until this present day. How is it that Moses was speaking with Jesus at the Transfiguration then?

Scripture (Romans 8:34-39) tells us that death cannot separate us from the Body of Christ. So when a saint dies, they STILL remain alive in Heaven. 1 Jn 3 says when we die we will be 'like Him and see Him as He is'. If the dead are in Heaven and are like Him, this means they are imitating him. If they are imitating Christ in Heaven, then they are praying for those on earth, not playing golf.

Paul speaks of the cloud of witnesses in our corner--who are these people? You see that it's all the saints whom the author is talking about/relaying stories about in the very same book. Can you really say these saints are 'dead' or are they just gone from earth and perfected in Christ?

GS

Edited August 18, 2004 by GoodSamaritan

[georgesbluegirl]

as for Jesus talking to moses and elijah... he was God in the flesh, not just a mere mortal.

He WAS a "mere mortal.' Jesus was 100% human as well as 100% divine. Jesus complete humanity is what makes the fact that He is God so awesome. Jesus was a man. He was therefore required to follow the laws of God - as a man. He didn't have any special exceptions in his humanity - he ate, drank, slept, spoke - only in his divinity. If we have acknowledged Jesus as completely human AND completely divine we must also accept that he was bound to the law that God set for men. Think about it...where do you see Jesus violating his Father's law? "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it." That's in Matthew, I believe. Long and short: Jesus talks to dead people, obviously he's not violating the law of the Father...I don't see how that's any different than any human speaking to the saints. Argue with me on this if you want...but I have the theology books to prove it!

"Christianity is one of the most beautiful religions in the world. If only the Christians would follow it." - Gandhi

Kinda makes you think...

Edited August 18, 2004 by georgesbluegirl

[stevehut]

You are missing the point:

Before Jesus Christ, Heaven was closed (we already had this discussion I believe) but after Him, Saints are in Heaven.

What?

So I can tear out the Pentateuch from my Bible?

[stevehut]

consults the dead.

Just provide me the verse that says the saints are dead.

Um, I think physically dead is the context of the pasage I quoted. Last time I checked, a physically living person was not qualified to be canonized.

[Botz]

georgesbluegirl. Well we aren't gonna agree about George...but Bluegrass and Earl Scruggs and Johnny Cash...now you're talking.

GS and gbg...

The idea of communicating to/through dead people... the Saints that are asleep in Christ,or Mary the mother of Jesus... as one of a means of gaining G-ds attention or enhancing our prayers is just not Scriptural and was never practiced in the New or Renewed Covenant Church. The Transfiguration is not evidence that this was allowed or practiced...Romans 8:34-39 talks of separation from the LOVE of Christ and not the BODY of Christ....The reference in 2 Maccabees alludes to a dream/vision and where it might hint at some of the mysteries that go on in Heaven it is certainly no way endorsing us to pray or seek favour of the dead. The Saints who have died in Christ may well be interceeding on our behalf and not playing golf...but again this does not mean we should in anyway attempt to talk or get in touch with them...I think the devils love such opportunities to masquerade as somebody else and lead people to,believe foolishness.

Christ is our Great High Priest.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

...He alone who has entered into Heaven and appears before the Father to intercede on our behalf. We can now enter the Holy of Holies by the blood of the Lamb and draw near to the Eternal Father ....we do not enter Holy of Holies to appear before Mary or so-called Saints of this or that...surely the witness of the Holy Ghost and the silence of relevant Scriptural revelation reveals this is wrong.

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The great question really is why would anyone want to go through Mary or any dead and righteous Believer when they have The L-rd Jesus their Great High Priest? If there are no examples that truely back up this baffling doctrine then why do many Christians persist in sustaining it and adding unnecessary confusion and inevitable division to the body of Christ!

[Wildgraywolf]

Matthew 22

31:

[GoodSamaritan]

The idea of communicating to/through dead people... the Saints that are asleep in Christ,or Mary the mother of Jesus... as one of a means of gaining G-ds attention or enhancing our prayers is just not Scriptural and was never practiced in the New or Renewed Covenant Church. The Transfiguration is not evidence that this was allowed or practiced..

You didn't refute my argument that Moses actually, physically DIED in Deuteronomy 34, yet was seen ALIVE with Jesus and Elijah at the Transfiguration. What does this prove? First, that those who have died in God's friendship arenot asleep, but very much ALIVE. Second, it proves that they do appear and intercede on earth with human witness.

Now, to further prove that the saints are ALIVE, Scripture is filled with examples. You, in thinking in human terms, consider one whose body dies, to be dead. This is a flawed assumption (pardon the pun). The twenty-four elders of Revelations 5 represent the hierarchy of the people of God in heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward).

If you say that they are the prayers TO God and not to the saints, you must admit, then, that those in heaven are aware of prayers which weren't even directed to them, further proving they are alive!

You also assert that this practice of praying to, and petitioning people who have left this earth, was never part of the NT Church. You give no evidence, however. This is because there IS no evidence--all the evidence is to the contrary. The first century catacombs which housed the bodies of the martyrs, contained prayer after prayer FOR the dead and TO the dead--this is a historical fact.

Clement of Alexandria, a giant of the Church who was a presbyter who aided in eventually determining the canon of Scripture, did NOT think the saints were dead:

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

How can the choir of saints do ANYTHING if they are dead? You see, all the objections you have cited hinge on whether the saints are dead or alive. The historic church believed and taught that they were alive, Scripture sure proves they are alive, and using reason, why would someone whose body dies but is in God's favor be WEAKER in Heaven than they are on Earth. We know this to be false.

Christ is our Great High Priest.

Amen, but the first Christians realized that our High Priest utilizes those who receive his gifts to petition for us as well.

Origen, in 233, wrote what everybody already believed and practiced:

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Romans 8:34-39 talks of separation from the LOVE of Christ and not the BODY of Christ....

Think logically here. What do we call a Father who fathers several different families? The Body of Christ is ONE, not many. Where does Scripture EVER stipulate that those on earth are part of a different 'Body' than those who have passed on?

Romans 8 is addressing, in v 33, 'the ELECT of God'. Therefore, the love of Christ is synonymous with the Body of Christ or, as in v 33, also called 'the ELECT of God'.

Eph 4:4 calls us 'One body and Spirit who is above all, through all, and in all'.

What does Romans 12 tell you here:

For as in one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office:

So we, being many, are one body in Christ; and every one members one of another:

And having different gifts, according to the grace that is given us, either prophecy, to be used according to the rule of faith;

Or ministry, in ministering; or he that teacheth, in doctrine;

He that exhorteth, in exhorting; he that giveth, with simplicity; he that ruleth, with carefulness; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Let love be without dissimulation.

This says that we have ONE body, not one for the 'living' and one for the 'dead'. But it also says that we are called to be intercessors in the ONE intercessor--Christ. Nowhere does it say we are NOT to intercede, rather we are to intercede BECAUSE we are in the ONE intercessor.

The Saints who have died in Christ may well be interceeding on our behalf and not playing golf...but again this does not mean we should in anyway attempt to talk or get in touch with them...

Check out Eph 3:

And to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God who created all things:

That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,

According to the eternal purpose which he made in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This says that even before man was created, God's plan was to have the Church teach the 'manifold wisdom of God' to even the angels and those in Heaven (the Saints are in Heaven). The saints are part of the Church and, therefore, are taught by it. So when Paul exhorts ALL to 'imitate me, for I am of Christ!', the saints receive their command that Paul gives in 1 Tim:2:

I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men:

For kings and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour

The cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1) are to pray for us and for all men!

The great question really is why would anyone want to go through Mary or any dead and righteous Believer when they have The L-rd Jesus their Great High Priest?

Well, why don't you tell me why you would ask me or your spouse to pray for you. Since Christ is the sole mediator, as you put it, why would you want a friend to intercede on your behalf? Answer: Because the Word of God commands it! Refer back to the Scripture which says we are all to be mediators in the ONE mediator. This is why. Secondly, God chooses to use us, His Body, to propsper in the gifts given to us to use. Third, Scripture tells us that sin affects God's ability to hear our prayers. James 5:16 says 'the prayer of a righteous one availeth much'. If they are in Heaven, made perfect by God, I'd say the saints are much more righteous than you or I. Their prayer is stronger because they are without sin.

We can now enter the Holy of Holies by the blood of the Lamb and draw near to the Eternal Father ....

Amen! This is why the saints were resurrected and glorified in Heaven as well. Why did people go to the Holy of Holies? To make sacrifices to God. 1 Peter 2 says:

Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

We are to continue to offer sacrifices to God and God alone. Catholicism does not make sacrifices to saints or Mary. But think about what a sacrifice IS--it's an intercession to God on behalf of His people! In Catholicism, it's the priest who does this FOR us. The priest, therefore, is doing what Peter commands and what Paul commands in making intercessions for us.

If there are no examples that truely back up this baffling doctrine then why do many Christians persist in sustaining it and adding unnecessary confusion and inevitable division to the body of Christ!

We've already shown that examples are in Scripture and in the everyday workings of the Christian Church--what more do you want? I've yet to see a single reference saying it was EVER contrary to Christian teaching to pray to God thru saints.

I think the devils love such opportunities to masquerade as somebody else and lead people to,believe foolishness.

Au contraire. The devil gets his head handed to him by God every time we obey Him. By saying the saints are dead, we actually take away the mediatorship and saving power of Jesus. For Jesus himself said that in the Resurrection, God was the God of the living. When He was raised, many spirits were raised and entered the city to interact with people. By saying the saints are dead and ineffectual, we deny that Christ's Resurrection was what he said it was--an intercession to the Father to make all creation among the living again. The devil WANTS us to disavow the saints because, in doing so, you disavow the one who elected them--Jesus.

Um, I think physically dead is the context of the pasage I quoted. Last time I checked, a physically living person was not qualified to be canonized.

If you choose to take one verse and ignore the rest of Scripture, you WOULD be correct. If you take into account what transpired through Jesus in the Resurrection, then the physically dead are a different thing than the spiritually alive. You have tons of NT references to the living in Heaven, yet you still claim these souls to be dead? Under Mosaic Law, people were forbidden to conjure up spirits through mediums and such--two way contact with the dead. Prayer is, first of all, not a two way connection--we petition saints, they do not talk back. Second, we see instances of saints who were dead (Moses) come back and interact on earth. Use the full backpack, not just one verse.

So I can tear out the Pentateuch from my Bible?

Hebrews 12:18-24 expounds on the differences between the OT saints and the power of the NT saints--those perfected:

For you are not come to a mountain that might be touched and a burning fire and a whirlwind and darkness and storm,

And the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, which they that had excused themselves, that the word might not be spoken to them.

For they did not endure that which was said: and if so much as a beast shall touch the mount, it shall be stoned.

And so terrible was that which was seen, Moses said: I am frighted, and tremble.

But you are come to mount Sion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels,

And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect,

And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaketh better than that of Abel.

The blood of Abel? Remember when Cain had just killed Abel and God told him, 'The Blood of Abel already cries out to me!'. Well, he contrasts the OT intercession with the NT intercession of those made PERFECT. This is what happened when Jesus rose--all those spirits were made perfect and enjoyed new power of intercession.

I know this is a lot to digest--reference the Scripture and think 'in the spirit' rather than through limited human perception. Don't put the power of God into a parameter just because you can't SEE, HEAR, TOUCH, or SMELL the saints. It ain't called the 'Mystical Body of Christ' for nothing...

GS

Edited August 19, 2004 by GoodSamaritan

[stevehut]

You're smart, GS. Very smart.

But it looks like a bunch of circular reasoning to me.